Avalung, but with a trigger

[Ørion]

Anecdotal but we just had a local dude die in a slide with an avalung, but couldn't get it in his mouth in time. I feel like it's another tool along side of the airbag that offers about an additional chance at survival, but much like an airbag is only useful if all the tangibles line up e.g you can get it in your mouth, don't have snow rammed down your throat and your airway isn't compromised.

Maybe I misread the report, but I thought he survived and the other rider (who had an airbag but also failed to deploy) was the fatality.

Either way a tragedy admittedly.

[garyfromterrace]

Airbags have been around since 2009?! Damn.
Also, no one answered my question about how this thing works when your airways are blocked by and full of snow. An Avalung makes sense because you put it in your mouth like a snorkel and if you manage to keep it there, you keep your airway clear. How does this work if it's just a fan by your shoulders? I don't buy their air circulation theory.

Hey stuck, I think your information is incorrect. I believe I've had one since the early 2000's (2002 or 2003). I intergoogled and found this:
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/history-o...-have-evolved/

1996 – ABS New System
Unveiling of the first ABS system with two airbags (TwinBag). The system was also completely redesigned, with a pyrotechnic pneumatic activation unit replacing the previous Bowden cable. The backpacks were produced by Vaude.

The first bag I had was manufactured by ABS. I'm on my third bag now and am very happy with the weight, the useable volume of the pack, the rechargeability, the ability to fly with it (with minimal fuck-around).

[Bunion 2020]

Calling any avalanche safety devices "useless" shows how little some understand risk and mitigation. Hell, even avalanche cords were not "useless".

[stuckathuntermtn]

Calling any avalanche safety devices "useless" shows how little some understand risk and mitigation. Hell, even avalanche cords were not "useless".

By useless, I mean not solving a problem any better, maybe worse, than something cheaper, lighter, and simpler than already exists. You haven't answered how it does anything better than an Avalung or even nothing at all when my face is blocked by or full of snow and ice. What I read from what you wrote is that someone said "avalanche safety device" and you just decided that automatically means it enhances safety somehow. No one has explained to me how exactly. The air just circulates around while I'm upside down in a treewell and all my head holes are stuffed and there's a hairdrier behind my head? Nope, sorry. Don't buy it.
Avalanche cords aren't an analogy for this either.
I guess I was hoping for something dramatic with the helicopter.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Is there more room around you when buried than I'm thinking there is? Is the snow somehow more porous than "sets up like concrete" when it stops moving would suggest?

I'm asking honest questions, and you just decided I'm dumb and not worthy of answering them. If you really think this works, then tell me what I'm missing. Being former ski patrol for a place we all loved doesn't make you smarter or holier than everyone else, but you sure like to act like it sometimes.
If you're just gonna come with that hot shit Bozeman attitude, then eat a bag of dicks instead of trying to say anything. It's a better use or your mouth and typing fingers.

[Bunion 2020]

By useless, I mean not solving a problem any better, maybe worse, than something cheaper, lighter, and simpler than already exists. You haven't answered how it does anything better than an Avalung or even nothing at all when my face is blocked by or full of snow and ice. What I read from what you wrote is that someone said "avalanche safety device" and you just decided that automatically means it enhances safety somehow. No one has explained to me how exactly. The air just circulates around while I'm upside down in a treewell and all my head holes are stuffed and there's a hairdrier behind my head? Nope, sorry. Don't buy it.
Avalanche cords aren't an analogy for this either.
I guess I was hoping for something dramatic with the helicopter.

I don't understand something that I have never seen therefor it must be useless.

Is there more room around you when buried than I'm thinking there is? Is the snow somehow more porous than "sets up like concrete" when it stops moving would suggest?

Google? Hear of it?

Can you breathe when trapped under snow?

Most sources say that a person who is completely buried can live for about 18 minutes. Even though snow is porous and contains a lot of trapped oxygen, victims breathe their exhaled air, causing carbon dioxide poisoning.

I'm asking honest questions, and you just decided I'm dumb and not worthy of answering them.

I am sorry if that is how you took my answer. I know absolutely nothing about this product other than what we have both seen here.

If you really think this works, then tell me what I'm missing. Being former ski patrol for a place we all loved doesn't make you smarter or holier than everyone else, but you sure like to act like it sometimes.
If you're just gonna come with that hot shit Bozeman attitude, then eat a bag of dicks instead of trying to say anything. It's a better use or your mouth and typing fingers.

Why thank you I guess.

[garyfromterrace]

Not an avi pro, nor profess to any great knowledge of the mechanics of getting buried but my understanding is that an avi bag when properly inflated will keep you on the surface therefore you don't have the same chance of complete burial (and asphyxiation).

Edit to add I share stuck's pessimism about the tech touted by the avilung fan thing. I figured the air bag was a better tool for surviving an avalanche when I bought my first avi pack and never liked the idea of having to find the tube with my mouth while in a washing machine.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I get the airbag part. I guess I'll just have to google "how can I ever be as core as bunion". Hopefully I never will be, since I don't have it in me to switch to banging nails for a living. Pulling network cable in old buildings every once in a while is hard enough. But the CoRdZ.

[Bunion 2020]

Without insulting you even further, Airbags are supposed to prevent/reduce the potential for full burial.

An Avalaung and this device are supposed to reduce the poisoning effects of re-breathing the CO2 that builds up around your airway when buried and kills you. That is why the intake and exhaust in an Avalung are separated. The danger is not being able to breathe it is the CO2.

That said, there is a secondary danger in most any avalanche and that IS getting your airways filled with the fine powder that is produced by the turbulent flow.

I don't think BD still produces the Avalung, possibly because of the difficulty of getting the mouthpiece in and keeping it in during what can be a violent event.

This horse is dead. Carry on.

[summit]

An Avalaung and this device are supposed to reduce the poisoning effects of re-breathing the CO2 that builds up around your airway when buried and kills you. That is why the intake and exhaust in an Avalung are separated. The danger is not being able to breathe it is the CO2.

A clarification, excess CO2, hypercapnia, is NOT primarily what is killing people.

Hypoxia is killing people.

Hypoxia either through:
1. Asphyxia: obstructive, positional, or constrictive
or
2. Rebreathing exhausting oxygen in accessible air: Poor gas exchange with the surrounding snowpack causing rebreathing and oxygen depletion of the local airspace. In better but still insufficient diffusion, hypercapnia complicates the slower hypoxia, and long enough you get hypothermia.

This device helps only with #2
Avalung also helps with some of #1

The Avalung prevents warm moist air exhaled from forming an ice mask further decreasing diffusion. Presumably some airflow generated by this fan thing could have some effect like that.

[sfotex]

So it is, in fact, useless if you get a bunch of snow down your nose/mouth.
Or is there something I don't know about what would happen if you accidentally deployed your Avalung in a helicopter?

No, but when your platoon is assigned to patrol in the mountain for a few weeks a year how do you dictate to soldiers when they need to have a tube in their mouth, and when not too?

So it is, in fact, useless if you get a bunch of snow down your nose/mouth.
This seems like a solution looking for a problem when the Avalung already exists.

The Avalung was tested the same way as this thing, by burying people in the snow FWIW. They presented stats showing it 'works' at ICAR last year, but who knows.

I'm not here to defend or detract from this thing, but you just need to keep in mind it has a slightly different use case that may (or may not) align with a recreational backcountry ski user...
There's plenty of non-avy savy workers that operate in avy terrain - law enforcement, soldiers, plow drivers, cat operators, people shoveling walk ways, etc. that die every year in avalanches.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Alright, well, thanks everyone for enlightening me. Still seems debatable whether or not it does anything.

[Jason4]

I’m bumping this back up since I just ordered a Raide SB40L. Hopefully the temps drop a few degrees and the pack ships soon. I’m looking forward to putting it through it’s paces.

[Shredhead]

I always envision something like this, integrated into a full face snowmobile helmet.

[ezgzy]

The high route just put out an article about this system, seems like there are some kinks but early studies are decent? They mention starting the system before dropping in as insurance. Seems like it could be good for situations like tree skiing where tree wells are an issue.
I’m curious to see how it does in the field with some real use this season


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[Jason4]

Tree wells are a real consideration in my local area.

[summit]

I'm still gonna attach my avalung to my airbag.

[Shredhead]

I've always considered them a NARSID device.

I had a big day in the side country. All my buds went home. I was tired and should have gone home. But I went for one more.
I was Billy goating, trying for a few more turns. I flopped over in a deep pocket of deep unconsolidated
snow. Started to freak, but being able to put the mouthpiece in place,
calmed me down enough to extricate myself.

I still see a full face type device in the future.

[summit]

I used to velcro the Avalung mouthpiece inside my FF chinguard so I could easily "grab" it but didn't have to ski with it in.