An AT gear question for people eternally preferring resort gear

[Adrider83]

So, after a post-work ski of a pretty chewed up couloir, I decided I want to move back towards a more stout touring setup. Generally speaking, I am not a gear complainer...I like most of what I have....outside of touring...always a struggle/balancing act. 15 years ago, I did the old frame binding thing with regular resort boots, then I did a stout resort ski with tech bindings and a fairly strong boot. Past five years has been a more true long-day setup...lighter skis and lighter boot (but the skimo crowd would probably call not light).

I think the area I'm most inclined to adjust is the boot...but I'm curious what others think. My current touring boot is a Hoji Free 110 (I couldn't find a 130 at the time)...I know a lot of people like the boot, but gosh...compared to my regular boot (Lange RS130)...it's just not great. I'm mean...if I'm skiing good snow, sure...it's a great boot for that. But in anything variable, I feel like I need to really reign it in a silly amount. Honestly, the Salmon MTN Lab boot I had before was a lot stronger. And weirdly, as soft as the Hoji Free 110 is, I feel like the second I get in funky steep-skiing, semi-tracked snow, I'll end up on my heels at some point, if i do anything other than super reserved skiing. And on top of it, because it's soft, I usually end up just buckling down way too tight until my feet hurt 1000 vert into the ski (that's my fault). Just wondering....do others feel the same on this, or am I out of wack?

So my questions: (1) boot recs (I suspect the Lange XT3 might be a good option); (2) short of going to a CAST system or something like that, what would folks recommend...particularly if I'm going to adjust the boot end of things: (3) should I adjust the ski end of things too...I have a recently retired, but still very usable, rossignol black ops sender ti 106 that wouldn't mind touring on at all, especially for the roadside couloirs where it's mainly booting.

I guess I should've started with what kind of touring I do....it's all over the place...everything from very long days, to quick laps, to a lot of booting up couloirs, to summer skiing.....maybe i need just two touring setups! ha!


Thanks all!

[auvgeek]

Couple thoughts, hope some of this is relevant and/or helpful.

I ski a Lange ZB plug inbounds, but I can ski pretty hard on touring boots and light pin bindings. Perhaps more importantly, I don’t feel like the gear makes things less fun. But I don’t ski too much deep, tracked out chop when touring. Sure, things can get tracked a bit in a couloir or whatever, but not like inbounds afternoon on a pow day. I have skied leftover pow inbounds on my touring gear, and it IS noticeably less fun than on inbounds gear.

I recommend you go try on a bunch of touring boots and find one that really fits, particularly in the heel and ankle. I really do think some of what makes touring boots ski poorly is the fit. Supposedly the Zipfit GFT liner can solve people’s heel issues so that might be an idea if you struggle with narrow heels.

Personally, I’d look into a PU boot if you’re willing to lug it around. Lange XT3 is pretty soft in rearward flex, but there are other options that are supposedly less compromised in lateral and rearward support.

I found skis that are lighter than about 1700g in approx a 185 length is where performance starts to degrade. For me personally. Something in the 1750-1850 g range is my personal sweep spot for feeling close to an inbounds setup but light enough for touring.

I still think bindings are the place to save weight. ATK Freeraider is the ticket if you want a freeride spacer. I also trust the Dynafit Speed superlight 2.0 heel and Ski trab toe, weighs like 170g but skis super well IMHO. I tried the Kingpin for a bit, but I honestly couldn’t tell that the alpine heel actually skied any better than the superlight heel in any actual touring conditions. I’m sure you can tell a difference inbounds but that’s different.

This is all assuming ramp angle, stack height, forward lean, etc, aren’t the issue. It can be tough to make tech bindings and boots feel like alpine gear. It’s worth starting there, if you haven’t already. Lange are pretty upright and P18s are pretty flat.

[byates1]

Gotta have a chairlift setup and a touring setup. And if you tour a bunch multiple weight setups.

Just buy everything that way you are covered

[Adrider83]

Couple thoughts, hope some of this is relevant and/or helpful.

I ski a Lange ZB plug inbounds, but I can ski pretty hard on touring boots and light pin bindings. Perhaps more importantly, I don’t feel like the gear makes things less fun. But I don’t ski too much deep, tracked out chop when touring. Sure, things can get tracked a bit in a couloir or whatever, but not like inbounds afternoon on a pow day. I have skied leftover pow inbounds on my touring gear, and it IS noticeably less fun than on inbounds gear.

I recommend you go try on a bunch of touring boots and find one that really fits, particularly in the heel and ankle. I really do think some of what makes touring boots ski poorly is the fit. Supposedly the Zipfit GFT liner can solve people’s heel issues so that might be an idea if you struggle with narrow heels.

Personally, I’d look into a PU boot if you’re willing to lug it around. Lange XT3 is pretty soft in rearward flex, but there are other options that are supposedly less compromised in lateral and rearward support.

I found skis that are lighter than about 1700g in approx a 185 length is where performance starts to degrade. For me personally. Something in the 1750-1850 g range is my personal sweep spot for feeling close to an inbounds setup but light enough for touring.

I still think bindings are the place to save weight. ATK Freeraider is the ticket if you want a freeride spacer. I also trust the Dynafit Speed superlight 2.0 heel and Ski trab toe, weighs like 170g but skis super well IMHO. I tried the Kingpin for a bit, but I honestly couldn’t tell that the alpine heel actually skied any better than the superlight heel in any actual touring conditions. I’m sure you can tell a difference inbounds but that’s different.

This is all assuming ramp angle, stack height, forward lean, etc, aren’t the issue. It can be tough to make tech bindings and boots feel like alpine gear. It’s worth starting there, if you haven’t already. Lange are pretty upright and P18s are pretty flat.

This is really really helpful advice. PU = polyurethane? Yeah....I'm not even sure it's the stiffness...I wouldn't call the Lange RS130 stiff by any measure...but it just feels solid...and the rearward thing with the touring boots is so true. I'll hold off on the XT3 and do some investigating. Thanks. Good call.

I just switched touring skis after pulling an edge on my last pair. Got the Elan Ripstick Tour 104 month or so ago...honestly, I think it's pretty dang good...I suspect it sits in that sweet spot you're talking about. I sized down to a 180, because I thought that'd save a little weight and make my life a little easier in funky scenarios/exits...who knows...


Also the last point you're making about all the other variables....I gotta figure that out, because my resort setup forever has been Lange RS, Look Pivots, and a heavy skis.

Thanks for this helpful advice!

[auvgeek]

I’d start with looking at the heel/toe delta of your bindings. Skimo.co has it for a bunch of pin heights listed so that might be worth a look. What tech bindings do you have?

A simple test that might be helpful is to click into your touring boots + skis and do the same with your alpine boots + skis. Like in your yard or living room or whatever. Just to see how different they feel. A final idea would be to ski your inbounds skis in your touring boots just to double check it’s the boots that are the problem.

[Adrider83]

I’d start with looking at the heel/toe delta of your bindings. Skimo.co has it for a bunch of pin heights listed so that might be worth a look. What tech bindings do you have?

A simple test that might be helpful is to click into your touring boots + skis and do the same with your alpine boots + skis. Like in your yard or living room or whatever. Just to see how different they feel. A final idea would be to ski your inbounds skis in your touring boots just to double check it’s the boots that are the problem.

Skimo co is about half a mile from my house, so I think I'm gonna swing by tomorrow! I hadn't thought of trying the touring boots in my resort skis...that's also a great idea to see if it's the boots. Thanks again!

[mr_pretzel]

Skimo co is about half a mile from my house, so I think I'm gonna swing by tomorrow! I hadn't thought of trying the touring boots in my resort skis...that's also a great idea to see if it's the boots. Thanks again!

Get some zipfit GFTs and ask skimoco to fit you in something tight in the ankle.

I’ve skied basically every freeride touring boot and for me the Radical pros + zipfits skis the closest to my lange plugs + zipfits. The rearward softness is really hard for me to get used to and the radical is clearly one of the best in rearward support, the hoji110 might just be too soft at your weight.

Also listen to Auvgeek for everything else, he’s probably the smartest guy on this forum tbh

[sb]

Gotta have a chairlift setup and a touring setup. And if you tour a bunch multiple weight setups.

Just buy everything that way you are covered

This

[turnfarmer]

Agree with Auvgeek, get your binding delta dialed first. Sounds like the Hopi Free is too voluminous for your foot. If you can ski an Lange LV., Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD is the lowest volume Touring boot out there. New one with Boa is PU. Worth a try on.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

^ IMO, the Scarpa 4 Quattro XT is much lower volume than the XTD. I found the XTD had too much space over my instep. If you're talking heel pocket, I would agree.

[chicken feathers]

So my questions: (1) boot recs (I suspect the Lange XT3 might be a good option); (2) short of going to a CAST system or something like that, what would folks recommend...particularly if I'm going to adjust the boot end of things: (3) should I adjust the ski end of things too...I have a recently retired, but still very usable, rossignol black ops sender ti 106 that wouldn't mind touring on at all, especially for the roadside couloirs where it's mainly booting.

...maybe i need just two touring setups! ha!


Thanks all!

I'm thinking about the same type of setup. Here's what I'm thinking based on what people I ski with like.

1: I think that's the right style of boot, whatever fits.
2: Tecton?
3: If I'm skiing wild snow I like a ski that's not metal...or maybe just a little underfoot. Something that's 1750-2000g's or so...Freeride touring skis or lightweight freeride skis.
and 4: Nice skins

Multiple touring quivers is part of the answer too.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Start with binding delta. You can spot people on high delta pin bindings a mile away struggling with their skis.


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[toast2266]

Auvgeek nailed it.

As much as anything though, I think it's just spending a bunch of time in your touring gear and getting used to it. If I'm touring a bunch, I find I can switch back and forth between touring and alpine gear and still ski pretty hard on the touring stuff. If I've only been running alpine gear and then try to go ski hard in my touring gear after not using it for a while, I'm a mess.

[Tjaardbreeuwer]

Just to be certain, I would double check the ramp angle and cuff lean of your AT set up compared to your resort set up.
Assuming you have a good fit in your AT boots (if not, that would be the first thing to fix), if the ramp angle of your foot, or the cuff lean are very different, that might be (part of) the problem. And it’s cheap and quick to fix.

I put a 4” level on my wax bench, put the ski on that, click the boot in and insert a L square into the boot, then measure then anlge of my foot that way, with a clinometer off the vertical arm off the square.

If that’s the same, I use a plumbbob off my knee to check cuff lean.

[Adrider83]

Start with binding delta. You can spot people on high delta pin bindings a mile away struggling with their skis.


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Yeah - when I got my new touring skis they asked if i wanted to upgrade to newer dynafits, because mine have the higher ramp angle...I opted for some little thing they put under the toe piece to make it more level.

The funny thing is though...I've skied on tech bindings for a decade...even a year using them at the resort when I was kinda tight on cash...and it wasn't a big issue...I'd even jump off stuff pretty regularly (wouldn't do that these days thought). I think maybe this boot (which I got last year) isn't the right one for me...I'm gonna try some things and take resort laps on them to see what feels the best...but maybe just going back to the Salomon MTN lab boot with a new liner wouldn't be the the worst thing. Maybe I've just become a middle-aged softy.

Here's some recent runs on the setup...not sure if the clips can show that it's ramp angle or not...I mean, still fun, but as you can see, quite reserved skiing...one with a crust and one without.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2vYw6Z3IvEc
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oV4-qFKk_Ec

[XXX-er]

You gotta carry it all up on your feet so ever buddy I know or see uses a Maestrale-ish kind of boot which ever fits, a tech binding and a 100mm ish ski that isnt too heavy, I wouldn't over think it

I seem to get along ok with whatever angles a Vert or RAD throws at me but YMMV I supose

It seems only kids use the heavy alpine stuff usually cuz thats all they got

[turnfarmer]

^ IMO, the Scarpa 4 Quattro XT is much lower volume than the XTD. I found the XTD had too much space over my instep. If you're talking heel pocket, I would agree.

I haven’t tried the Quattro. It does look like a seriously low instep.

[BeHuWe]

Get some zipfit GFTs and ask skimoco to fit you in something tight in the ankle.

I’ve skied basically every freeride touring boot and for me the Radical pros + zipfits skis the closest to my lange plugs + zipfits. The rearward softness is really hard for me to get used to and the radical is clearly one of the best in rearward support, the hoji110 might just be too soft at your weight.

Also listen to Auvgeek for everything else, he’s probably the smartest guy on this forum tbh

This!!

i used to be in the fudd camp and refused to use touring gear because i didn’t like how it skied. (One of my previous setups was commander 118’s, cast and castified RS’s)

I now have maestrale xt’s with zipfits and it changed the game for me.


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[LeeLau]

Yeah - when I got my new touring skis they asked if i wanted to upgrade to newer dynafits, because mine have the higher ramp angle...I opted for some little thing they put under the toe piece to make it more level.

The funny thing is though...I've skied on tech bindings for a decade...even a year using them at the resort when I was kinda tight on cash...and it wasn't a big issue...I'd even jump off stuff pretty regularly (wouldn't do that these days thought). I think maybe this boot (which I got last year) ....

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2vYw6Z3IvEc
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oV4-qFKk_Ec

Tbh I can't tell from the videos. They're nice conservative turns in good snow fwiw. When I'm on high delta tech bindings ie a tippy toes setup I have to sit very low, drive the shins and tips and ski quite locked into place. Everyone's different of course but does that strike a chord for you.

And also fwiw agreed with auvgeek

[auvgeek]

I just switched touring skis after pulling an edge on my last pair. Got the Elan Ripstick Tour 104 month or so ago...honestly, I think it's pretty dang good...I suspect it sits in that sweet spot you're talking about. I sized down to a 180, because I thought that'd save a little weight and make my life a little easier in funky scenarios/exits...who knows...

So the Ripstick Tour 104 is 1555g in the 180 length (and 1665g in the 187). Frankly, that's light enough that I start to notice.

My experience with the 180 Zero G 105 (1510g) vs 185 Zero G 108 (1770g) is that the 108 is much more substantial and more fun. It's a major difference for me, but I know plenty of people who like the 105 because it's lighter and easier to ski. I can basically ski how I like on the ZG 108 without thinking too hard about it. Whereas I definitely dial things back on the Zero G 105, likely due to both the shorter length and the weight. For reference, I'm 5'11" and about 170#. I replaced the 185 ZG 108 with a 187 Woodsman 110 tour, which I think skis even better at a similar weight. It's a noticeable enough difference that my wife noticed I ski more conservatively on the ZG 105 and encouraged me to bring the ZG108 on a hut trip, despite my concerns about my fitness relative to the group.

So after you get the boot situation figured, maybe consider a touring ski that's more like 1850g than 1550g. Personally, I like to keep my ski weight a little above my boot weight so I would be a little hesitant to buy an 1850g PU boot to use with your 1555g skis.

[jesski]

You gotta carry it all up on your feet so everybody I know or see uses a Maestrale-ish kind of boot (whichever fits), a tech binding and a 100mm ish ski that isn't too heavy; I wouldn't overthink it.

^this, if you live somewhere very deep, like northern BC. when you stand on your skis in deep pow you'll automatically adjust your stance for the inherent ramp angle without thinking about it, which is why the deeper it is, the less you'll notice all the techy stuff... yet another inherent benefit of a deep, stable snowpack.

if you live somewhere more continental and you're skiing more variable snow than not, something like ramp angle becomes a lot more noticeable. Since the OP lives near SkiMo, he's in Utah, and therefore all the annoying cuff angle and ramp angle miscellany can have a significant impact on the experience (which brings us back to auvgeek and BeHuWe's comments).

[XXX-er]

I have shimmed toes for too much forward lean ( ass sticking out ) on an alpine rig back in the day so i'm aware of ramp & forwrd lean, I just havent felt a need to shims my Vert or Rad setups but ymmv

and as for snow I would say it not all that deep up here

SO lightish 100mm ski & binding on the shorter side of what the camper normaly skis with enough boot to drive it, no need to overthink IMO,

yes I would ratehr ski an alpine rig than an AT but it is and has always been about the weight & ROM for the up, OP has just found a weird way to ask the question

[Adrider83]

Hey - thanks everyone for the help. I tried a couple different things, including going back to my old touring boots (salomon mtn lab), and I suspect it was the substantially more forward lean on the dynafit hoji free 110 that I wasn't enjoying. Did some resort laps in variable snow, and felt very comfortable back on the old mtn labs with the ripstick tour...even with a ski that I consider quite light, I felt fine pushing it decently hard. And, got some mini backcountry laps this weekend, and again felt great with the mtn lab. I never really thought at any point about the boots on my feet...good sign. That boot is plenty stiff and I feel like the forward lean must just be more similar to what I'm used to with the my resort boots. Now if only I could get that mtn lab to walk a little better, then we'd be really dialed!

Thanks to everyone for the great advice.

[stuntmanbo]

ATK Freeraider is the ticket if you want a freeride spacer.

For even lighter while still getting a freeride spacer you can take the ATK Kuluar and the new AL16 spacer.