Why do proforms suck now?

[jackstraw]

This is in no way justifying, just sharing behind the curtain. The reality is that from many brand's perspectives, proform went from a "marketing expense" to a "revenue line". As such, with limited inventory allocation, they are maximizing return on limited inventory without paying attention to the impacts of opening proform up to those that shouldn't qualify. I don't see it as greed, but more just being asleep at the wheel.

If you work at a shop and meaningfully drive sales, then ask the rep if they can help you use the gear you sell. Some will help and some won't. If they can't or just refer you to the app that sucks, then it tells you all you need to know about how much that rep and their brand values your shop and your efforts, and they won't start valuing you until you start supporting other brands and their sell-through slips.

If you have worked long term at a shop, then check with your buyer to see if you can reserve your personal stuff on the pre-booking, ideally with demo dating/terms.

Ya. A few reps I know have their hands tied, so they are extremely limited on what they can do as it's handled above their heads. They can unload "samples" that they "bought" post season. Again, it's the corporations where the CEO's are making 8 digit salaries.

Shops that sell at cost to employees are rad.

And as far as skiing goes, imo, it should be limited to on-hill and ski town shop employees. The jabroni who really has no clue and skis/rides 10 days a year and works in a shop 3hrs from a hill has very little influence. Granted they still sell, but so does the guy at Home Depot.

[XXX-er]

I buy used/last season a lot more often than I prodeal because the value just isn't there.

This ^^ I never did proforms cuz there are always deals on new/ lightly used gear, especaily when ski season is over have the money and be ready to pounce on the deal

sometimes still in the plastic wrapper, tax free or it might be already mounted with bindings

but when it comes to boots I will pay list to get a good fit

[Core Shot]

So who ruined it?

Sure. Internet. Online bro forms. But the bro buying at half off but paying shipping is the same as a wholesale sale. Minus the processing labor costs.

My youngest has great ski discounts. Some not so much. But he works in a bike shop. Never tuned a ski except with me. So yeah. He’s the problem I guess. But back to the manufacturer selling wholesale. Why would they care? 50 off is wholesale.

It must be the retailers that put the squeeze on the manufacturers.
And yet every retailer sells shit on discount all the time.

[Marshal Olson]

So who ruined it?

Sure. Internet. Online bro forms. But the bro buying at half off but paying shipping is the same as a wholesale sale. Minus the processing labor costs.

My youngest has great ski discounts. Some not so much. But he works in a bike shop. Never tuned a ski except with me. So yeah. He’s the problem I guess. But back to the manufacturer selling wholesale. Why would they care? 50 off is wholesale.

It must be the retailers that put the squeeze on the manufacturers.
And yet every retailer sells shit on discount all the time.

See shift in "marketing channel" to "sales channel" mindset at corporate level.

marketing channel -> what is the benefit and how does it help drive awareness and demand
discrete sales channel -> how can we reach more people and maximize price/profit on each transaction

I would say the "problem" is that the ski brands are investing into growing their direct sales channels and acquiring customers (generally away from and at the cost to retailers). This is just one of the symptoms of brands investing resources away from specialty retail.

ENDVR, OPL, Experticity, etc are all essentially automating the role of a tech rep (ie lower expense) and turning that function into sales channels (ie more money in) and viewing it as volume upside.

Lets say at the end of the day, the brand makes the same amount of money as selling wholesale. But they own the customer relationship, relegating the dealer to a service provider. On the one hand, you can see the logic. But its incredibly short sighted. It just isn't a sustainable business model for either the brand or for skilled and knowledgable people to provide localized expertise and service. And obviously a significant detriment to the retailer and its staff.

[grskier]

A. Abuse - it because impossible to enforce and turned reps into cops

B. The socials - industry members ain't the marketing force they were

C. Online shopping - why give discount to office drones in the call center?

Expert Voice, Outdoor Prolink, and EPIC/IKON, H1B visa programs basically devalued ski industry employment.

Sent from my Turbo 850 Flatbrimed Highhorse

This in a big way. For bullet B, they get more bang for their buck with an instagram influencer than a shop guy.

[Stuntmonkey]

And as far as skiing goes, imo, it should be limited to on-hill and ski town shop employees. The jabroni who really has no clue and skis/rides 10 days a year and works in a shop 3hrs from a hill has very little influence. Granted they still sell, but so does the guy at Home Depot.

This is a big thing too. I've been pushed onto some brands/models from when I first started skiing that were not suited for me because thats what the shop was trying to move. Also why I'm so anal on buying a brand new pair of skis from the shop without demoing. I literally had a shop in Calgary get pissy with me yesterday because I said I'd rather demo a pair than buy something thats not right.

The influence into what I'm buying comes predominantly from this place, because the feedback is real use cases in aggregate.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Is Expert Voice the new Sniagrab?

What does a pair of skis cost on real Pro Form these days? Like what a patroller or instructor gets?

Sent from my Turbo 850 Flatbrimed Highhorse

[waxman]

Oh man, I could melt the internet with replies to this. So let's start. I own a shop. I was a sales rep for roughly 20 years. Before that I worked retail and ski service since the mid-80s.
My first "pro deal" was a set of Salomon 747 Equipes I purchased for 75$.

My staff have access to every pro deal from the manufacturers we deal with. If there isn't one we have a cost plus program so they still get a deal. I also have some "pull" so if there is a dire need or financial situation I can work things out with our reps or suppliers.

IMHO staff deals should be only for staff at retailers (independent ones at that, I remember doing a clinic at Sport Chek in Edmonton and the next day the paper forms were stapled on a bulletin board at the university).

"Pro forms" should be for industry staff currently employed in the industry. They should also have an affiliation with a retailer to drive sales. In 30 plus years of dealing with pro forms and similar I have known 2, count 'em 2, instructors that have driven sales to brands or local retailers because they got discounted pro form gear. Ski patrol, none. That's not to say I don't have instructors or patrollers that don't send sales to me/my store now but that's because of the various services/skills/knowledge we provide.

Of course this is TGR and everyone should get the same deal as the pros even though they're mostly dentists.

Influencers? Really? Has anyone bought a ski because an influencer recommended it? Influencers should pay double.

Experticity and other programs like it I found to be a pain/glitchy/buggy and not work as advertised.

Endvr seem to work better for my staff and the companies seem to have more flexibility in their offers and rewards. Anything I personally get on that I just give to whatever staff want the deal/reward.

[jackstraw]

Influencers? Really? Has anyone bought a ski because an influencer recommended it? Influencers should pay double.

I don't know who a ski/snowboard influencer would be aside from a pro? And anyone buying a ski based on pro riding it is well...good for the pro so he'll get paid...but we all know the pro could ride 2x4's better than everyone...except trg'ers of course. Did anyone by the SX91 or whatever that Salomon rear entry boot Scot was rippin' in '88 and say yeah man, I'll rip now!

[XavierD]

Influencers? Really? Has anyone bought a ski because an influencer recommended it? Influencers should pay double. .

Undoubtedly. Probably a shit ton. But as pointed out, what’s the difference between and influencer and “pro” skier these days. If we’re referring to mediocre skiers who manage an online presence super well - they absolutely are selling skis at some level.

[GoldenBC]

How many Hoji jerk off threads are there on TGR?…

[XXX-er]

Not pointing any fingers but I think a mediocre skier who knows how to inluence

can influence a whole lot more skiers

than a pro skier who can't influence

[SnowMachine]

On the outside of this conversation is the "why aren't you getting a good deal?" conversation.

I get the pretty standard "pro" deals through work. 30-50% from most companies. 30% from all Alterra owned shops. It's really the same prices as discounted end-of-season pricing that I was able to find prior to working in the industry. I appreciate the ability to buy what I want at discounted rates "right now," but I never had an issue finding the gear I wanted before, either. Just wait until spring and act decisively on the gear you've been waiting on.

Outside of that, if you live in a ski town and are involved locally, why aren't you getting deals? Two of my customers own boot shops. One refuses to let me pay for boots or fitting. Another owns a ski/bicycle shop and will gladly let me trade work for product. Then there are the reps. Our reps will generally clear out very lightly used demo or sample gear either garage sale style or direct to friends/acquaintances. I've picked up basically new skis for $250. Let them know what you want to buy at the end of the season and wait on that phone call. A case of beer goes a long way, too.

[alpinevibes]

Undoubtedly. Probably a shit ton. But as pointed out, what’s the difference between and influencer and “pro” skier these days. If we’re referring to mediocre skiers who manage an online presence super well - they absolutely are selling skis at some level.

Yeah, gotta agree that like it or not: influencers/free-gear-"pros" have a lot of influence on newer, younger customers.

If you're over 40 that may seem stupid/insane, but that's the name of the game for most retail these days. I work with teenagers who ski. What they see on TikTok/IG/Youtube they want and buy.

[waxman]

On the outside of this conversation is the "why aren't you getting a good deal?" conversation.

I get the pretty standard "pro" deals through work. 30-50% from most companies. 30% from all Alterra owned shops. It's really the same prices as discounted end-of-season pricing that I was able to find prior to working in the industry. I appreciate the ability to buy what I want at discounted rates "right now," but I never had an issue finding the gear I wanted before, either. Just wait until spring and act decisively on the gear you've been waiting on.

Outside of that, if you live in a ski town and are involved locally, why aren't you getting deals? Two of my customers own boot shops. One refuses to let me pay for boots or fitting. Another owns a ski/bicycle shop and will gladly let me trade work for product. Then there are the reps. Our reps will generally clear out very lightly used demo or sample gear either garage sale style or direct to friends/acquaintances. I've picked up basically new skis for $250. Let them know what you want to buy at the end of the season and wait on that phone call. A case of beer goes a long way, too.

Valid points, except the beer.

[mntlion]

Valid points, except the beer.

#chocolatemilk

[axebiker]

Interesting conversation here. I've been involved in "the industry" since the early 90's, and finally hung it up last year. I remember when "pro deals" were very selective in the scope of who got them, and "shop deals" were even better, but even more rare. My humble opinion is that the blame lies more with the interwebzz than anything. Access is a big part - more people buying more gear for more money, so "discounts" are not what they once were, but when you're moving volume, give the smaller discount to more people - make it up there. Also, there are a LOT more brands out there than 20-30 years ago, so the competition for those customers is fierce, and a perceived "special access" gets both pro and casual influencers, and you don't need the shop guy to push your brand - you just need a pretty face or mediocre talent coupled with some internet fame, and there you go...shop rat doesn't have the pull they used to. I don't really remember lots of guys sitting on a half dozen or more sets of skis back then either. Now, you see casual skiers with 10+ sets beautifully (and alphabetically) displayed in the gear room. That's a newer thing...

And then there was the pandemic.

Kinda rambling above, but the moral of the story - even when I had access to everything under the sun, I found better deals if I was patient and didn't need the "mostest newest coolest" gear. If I was looking at last year's holdovers, the deals were always better. Patience pays off, and you also get a better picture of the real world performance as opposed to the marketing propaganda performance.

[skimaxpower]

These days, tons of people that have (at best) a tangential relationship to the industry are able to pull off some sort of pro form deals. I have plenty of friends that haven't worked in the industry in at least 10 years, but still get deals from some brands.

This is totally accurate. I haven't worked in the industry in 10+ years, yet the majority of my pro-deal access credentials remain valid. The manufacturers don't want to police access. They make money whether I buy pro-deal or retail.

[Meconium]

On the manufacturing/distribution side, eventually CS gets burnt on processing deals. Low priority. CS often also get the better deals by trading deals.
Don't write a novel.
If you send an email, use a work email. Manufacturer to other manufacturers can be beneficial because it's kind of a "brotherhood". Marketing/ sales guys get the best deals for themselves and often keep the beer and hook friends and family up before fellow employees. Sometimes the retail kids are the dishwasher.

[sb]

Lol, where is my proform on a dishwasher?

[SnowMachine]

Valid points, except the beer.

Meh, you do you. Craft beer cans are basically a precious metal in my town. Skiers and mountain bikers love themselves some craft beer.

[SnowMachine]

This is totally accurate. I haven't worked in the industry in 10+ years, yet the majority of my pro-deal access credentials remain valid. The manufacturers don't want to police access. They make money whether I buy pro-deal or retail.

In a lot of cases its about the relationships you build. I haven't been involved in the watersports industry in 10 years, but I can still make a phone call and get a proform or freebies. That dies off as time goes on and the guys you know move on from the industry.

[Name Redacted]

In a lot of cases its about the relationships you build. I haven't been involved in the watersports industry in 10 years, but I can still make a phone call and get a proform or freebies. That dies off as time goes on and the guys you know move on from the industry.

Yeah, funny how that works. I dont really try any more. I consider the fact that i make a lot more now than i did in a ski shop reason enough to let the kids have at those deals. I still take them when they come my way, but it is fewer and fewer. The good old days were good.

Just another way that the ski bum is getting squeezed out from the ski towns. Pretty soon all the Dentists and Lawyers are gonna be skiing around on DPSs with dried out bases and rounded edges because they aint got anyone to tune their shit.

[AlpiNord]

Just another way that the ski bum is getting squeezed out from the ski towns. Pretty soon all the Dentists and Lawyers are gonna be skiing around on DPSs with dried out bases and rounded edges because they aint got anyone to tune their shit.

Ha! When I saw this cartoon relative to 'new golf drivers' vs 'golf lessons & practice', I immediately thought this:

[grskier]

This is in no way justifying, just sharing behind the curtain. The reality is that from many brand's perspectives, proform went from a "marketing expense" to a "revenue line". As such, with limited inventory allocation, they are maximizing return on limited inventory without paying attention to the impacts of opening proform up to those that shouldn't qualify. I don't see it as greed, but more just being asleep at the wheel.

If you work at a shop and meaningfully drive sales, then ask the rep if they can help you use the gear you sell. Some will help and some won't. If they can't or just refer you to the app that sucks, then it tells you all you need to know about how much that rep and their brand values your shop and your efforts, and they won't start valuing you until you start supporting other brands and their sell-through slips.

If you have worked long term at a shop, then check with your buyer to see if you can reserve your personal stuff on the pre-booking, ideally with demo dating/terms.

This plus a few of the other factors of market shift and saturation of bros as mentioned