50 years to the day

[oldnew_guy]

Plus, will Israel let them back in if they do leave?

Well, depends on who in the Isreal government will be in control. Some in the Isreali government have indicated that they are fine with Gaza being flattened, Palestinans forced out ("Gaza Nakbah"), pushing the civilian population to leave by limiting supplies, etc.

[californiagrown]

Right. So if the world refuses to help they should all shut the fuck up about ceasefire and all that. They've chosen for it to not be their fight so they should have no say in, well, anything.

Discourse is good. It is healthy for outside parties to critique the actions of two warring actors- it helps hold and keep them somewhat accountable to the rules and laws of war so that unnecessary suffering is mitigated. Do you really see nothing to critique about Israeli actions post Oct 7?


What is the end goal here, and is there any cogent plan to get there? Or is the plan to just keep herding the Gazan population the length of the territory with bombing campaigns while Israel takes its time to figure out what, if any, their longterm plan is.

[summit]

Isreal is the occupying power in Gaza. Right?

It is an active warzone, not a currently occupied and controlled territory.

Hard to manage and tragic.

Of course, Hamas could surrender any day now... or negotiate a ceasefire...

[ex-powderbroker]

The Israeli goal seems clear, they seek to remove Hamas as a capable military adversary and ruling party. Whether that will be replaced by another group is tbd. There doesn’t seem to be a phase 2 that has evolved from the war but it’s not clear if this is by design. It’s not much of conspiracy to suggest that the unrest helps bibi stay in power and out of jail. Do they simply not care about the crisis unfolding with the majority of homes damaged in the territory? It wouldn’t be a stretch to suggest so.

Israel though has made the decision that leaving Hamas in power will simply result in more attacks like 2008, 14, 23, etc.

So imo it’s completely fair to criticize the response but it should also be acknowledged that urban warfare against an entrenched opponent isn’t easy to conduct and we don’t great intel about casualties (civilian vs military) and that Hamas has sworn to do similar attacks again (not to mention the thousands of rockets that never stop).

It’s also undeniable that it’s extremely easy to criticize the dehumanizing statements made by government officials (of which there are many) that call into question specifically whether or not the army is doing their best to minimize civilian casualties.

Hamas rose to power on the bloody back of the second intifada that killed thousands of
civilians, ended up dividing the west bank, and completely derailing the peace process. It was a grave mistake to elect them but a similar mistake not to treat them as fairly as possible when they were elected, at least before the civil war broke out between them and fatah and they took every gazan as a hostage.

The occupation is 100% abhorrent and the violence does little other than convince Israel it is necessary. You have two parties without necessary leadership to see any humanity in the other side. It would be a great time for some very bold people on both sides to try to convince their own of a third path, and sadly no one seems ready to rise to the occasion.

This is a lot of suffering for the misdeeds of the past and the rhetoric from there as well as the diaspora don’t seem, to me, to help at all. not even a little bit. in fact, virtually anything that is “pro” one side is usually disgusting.

i wish i had a solution, but i think this is a fair assessment.

per capita Palestine has been the largest recipient of humanitarian aid for a long time, its probably going to need at least double it immediately. hopefully the water pipes stay in the ground and it can finally be the Dubai on the med that has been long envisioned.

Violence will only ever breed more violence.

[highangle]

Isreal is the occupying power in Gaza. Right?

If yes, they have obligations under the Geneva Convention towards civilians. It appears that some of Isreal's allies are judging that they are not meeting their obligations to feed civilians so they are using their resources to deliver by air and sea supplies to civilians over Israels lines of control.

What do the Geneva Accords have to say about rocket attacks, rape/murder raids on noncombatant music festivals, and holding civilian hostages?


And learn how to spell Israel so it doesn't look like you came to your conclusions in an ideological manner.

[leroy jenkins]

It is an active warzone, not a currently occupied and controlled territory.

Hard to manage and tragic.

Of course, Hamas could surrender any day now... or negotiate a ceasefire...

Israel also could just stop bombing gaza too. Nothing forcing them to keep killing tens of thousands of civilians.

[highangle]

It's got to be millions or billions by this point.

[oldnew_guy]

What do the Geneva Accords have to say about rocket attacks, rape/murder raids on noncombatant music festivals, and holding civilian hostages?


And learn how to spell Israel so it doesn't look like you came to your conclusions in an ideological manner.

Violent terrorist organization does violent terrorist shit. Duh.

Israel is part of the western democratic first world order, so that's the expectation for them.

[oldnew_guy]

It is an active warzone, not a currently occupied and controlled territory.

Hard to manage and tragic.

Of course, Hamas could surrender any day now... or negotiate a ceasefire...

Sure, Hamas could do all that, but do we really expect a violent terrorist organization to do that?

In the meantime the conflict doesn't seem to be slowing the US military from air dropping and preparing to sea lift aid into Gaza. Israel is letting protestors stop aid and the US military is flying C17's over their heads. It's not a good look.

The GC has a lot to say about treatment of civilians and I think you have to rely on a series of highly technical arguments to ignore the obvious moral foundation of the document and it's application in this conflict.

[highangle]

Violent terrorist organization does violent terrorist shit. Duh.

Israel is part of the western democratic first world order, so that's the expectation for them.

Evidently everyone expects Palestine to be a bunch of fucking animals so there's no real pressure on them to release hostages, or even quit firing rockets or shooting Jews every chance they get?

[oldnew_guy]

The Israeli goal seems clear, they seek to remove Hamas as a capable military adversary and ruling party. Whether that will be replaced by another group is tbd. There doesn’t seem to be a phase 2 that has evolved from the war but it’s not clear if this is by design. It’s not much of conspiracy to suggest that the unrest helps bibi stay in power and out of jail. Do they simply not care about the crisis unfolding with the majority of homes damaged in the territory? It wouldn’t be a stretch to suggest so.

Here is what I can gather:

- Remove Hamas and return hostages
- Demilitarize Gaza
- Establish 1km security buffer from existing Gaza border, including border with Egypt (in progress)
- Ongoing Israeli security control of all territory west of Jordan
- Israel uninvolved in day to day public order
- Rebuild administration and education system
- Civilian control of Gaza by new government with heavy involvement by Saudi Arabia or/and the UAE
- Shut down UNWRA and replace with other international aid
- No recognition of Palestinian state

[leroy jenkins]

I call bullshit. But it is consistent with your reputation.

https://wordsrated.com/typing-speed-...st%20Typist”.

I'm willingm to bet the official worl record has a requirement for accuracy that I am not ever going to be able to meet. 170 aminute without mistakes is insane. 160 a minute with plenty of mistakes and some use of autocorrect seems a long ways off from that.

[leroy jenkins]

As the record shows, that's different from thinking 160 words per minute

Yea, I fully admit I type slightly faster than I can think, and signifgantly faster than I can read. WTF else is the internet for other than typing slightly faster than you can think?

I know its supposed to be a burn, but I've literally said this same thing about myself already.

[oldnew_guy]

Evidently everyone expects Palestine to be a bunch of fucking animals so there's no real pressure on them to release hostages, or even quit firing rockets or shooting Jews every chance they get?

I mean, the Israelis are blowing them the fuck up every chance they get. Seems like real pressure to me.

[highangle]

I mean, the Israelis are blowing them the fuck up every chance they get. Seems like real pressure to me.

I guess you forgot 10/7 and hostages and any other reason for the current situation that might cast Palestinians in a negative light, like a disingenuous fucking asshole?

Eat shit

[oldnew_guy]

I guess you forgot 10/7 and hostages and any other reason for the current situation that might cast Palestinians in a negative light, like a disingenuous fucking asshole?

Eat shit

'

Man, you really are crazy.

[J. Barron DeJong]

'

Man, you really are crazy.

More and more people are saying this…

[highangle]

'

Man, you really are crazy.

You're a rhetorical douchebag here to justify nightly rocket attacks and rape raids because you hate Jews. You should be a little scared of me.

[oldnew_guy]

You're a rhetorical douchebag here to justify nightly rocket attacks and rape raids because you hate Jews. You should be a little scared of me.

[summit]

Sure, Hamas could do all that, but do we really expect a violent terrorist organization to do that?

Doc, the surgery and chemo are killing too much good tissue. Since the cancer won't quit on its own, should we just let it take over?

This is not a series of technical arguments.

It is a fucked up tragic situation with no good solutions, but there are worse ones that people are willing to fantasize about because they hate the fact that the situation is fucked.

In the meantime the conflict doesn't seem to be slowing the US military from air dropping and preparing to sea lift aid into Gaza.

US is not gonna distribute the aid. We are going to fart around trying to manage domestic perception in the runup to the election.

We aren't in control on the ground. Neither is Israel.

So... who is in control and what are they doing about the problem and why? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ex-powderbroker]

No one is in control on the ground. famine, chaos, and now…. clan war:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-assassinated/

[leroy jenkins]

You're a rhetorical douchebag here to justify nightly rocket attacks and rape raids because you hate Jews. You should be a little scared of me.

I don't think anyone hates jews. Like, maybe four fat aryan nation douchebags in a trailer somewhere. i think people kind of just feel like indiscriminate bombings of 25k people including men women and children isn't really justified or cool.

But keep up theparanoia.

[leroy jenkins]

Doc, the surgery and chemo are killing too much good tissue. Since the cancer won't quit on its own, should we just let it take over?

This is not a series of technical arguments.

It is a fucked up tragic situation with no good solutions, but there are worse ones that people are willing to fantasize about because they hate the fact that the situation is fucked.



US is not gonna distribute the aid. We are going to fart around trying to manage domestic perception in the runup to the election.

We aren't in control on the ground. Neither is Israel.

So... who is in control and what are they doing about the problem and why? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You're saying hamas is in control of gaza? To the extent that itsup to them whether or not its safe enough to deliver aid? While israel is doing the bombings that have killed tens of thousands of people?

What exactly is so unsafe about this place other than the bombings and damage done by the bombings? Do you have any evidence at all to so much as suggest hamas is actively trying to make sure no aid gets to these people and just bombs?

Does this really not seem like a stretch to you? Really makes you go hmmm?


No one is in control there. Thats why the people need aid. Is because they're getting bombed into oblivion. Thatswhat war is, contested areas.

[riser4]

More and more people are saying this…

Hey, that's the same view I have!

[highangle]

Good thinking, guys.

If there's no reasonable response, don't try to pretend your social media heroes have one.