50 years to the day

[J. Barron DeJong]

Israeli soldiers opened fire Tuesday morning near crowds of Palestinians walking toward a new food distribution site in southern Gaza, the Israeli military said. The Red Cross and Gaza health ministry said at least 27 people had been killed.

It was the second such shooting by Israeli forces in three days near the same aid distribution site in the southern city of Rafah, where thousands of desperate and hungry Palestinians are coming early each day in hopes of securing a food handout. Israeli soldiers opened fire on Sunday near an approach to the same food distribution site, and Palestinian officials said they killed at least 23 people.
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The United Nations has criticized the new effort, saying the amount of aid being distributed falls far short of needs, with one official calling it “engineered scarcity.”

The Israeli-American initiative that began last week has only announced four aid distribution points compared with hundreds under the previous U.N.-coordinated aid handout system. And on any given day, most of the four sites are not operational.

In the latest violence on Tuesday, the Israeli military said the troops fired near “a few” people who had strayed from the designated route to the site and who did not respond to warning shots. The statement called them “suspects” and said they had “posed a threat” to soldiers. But a military spokeswoman declined to explain the nature of the perceived threat.

The military said it was aware of reports of casualties and was looking into it.

[californiagrown]

Can't it be true that hamas is shooting civilians trying to get aid. AND the IDF is firing at civilians ignoring IDF orders and warnings and stampeding to get aid? Seems like hamas sees gazan civilians as pawns in the war. And the IDF sees gazan civilians as animals, or at least lessers. War is hell. No one involved is right... except the civilians who just want peace.

[J. Barron DeJong]

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/03/w...ng-israel.html

free link: https://archive.ph/mc6gS

[summit]

I could take your "both sides equally bad" apart by pointing out that is completely disconnected from the actual reality as Israel consistently makes the humanitarian, legal, and compassionate effort where Hamas does not.

But instead let me tell you what this reminds me of.

It reminds me of the constant din when I argue on a conservative forum about Ukraine.

"Reasonable" and "skeptical" posters who think they are "critical thinkers" will spew constant vitriol about how "Russia is bad but Ukraine is also bad" and "Putin is corrupt but Zelenskyy is also corrupt" and "I hate both sides" and "both sides are liars" and "I could care less who wins, but I want peace." They have been exhausted and confused by the stream of propaganda that has infliltrated their media consumption and social sphere. They honestly cannot tell the difference anymore between the naked aggression of Putin's invasion of Ukraine, targeting of civilians, kidnapping of children, and mistreatment of POWs, and the Ukrainian victims who were trying to move peacefully away from the corrupt state the USSR and Russia left them in. They are left to doubt and dismiss all the information that might steer them to understand the moral compass of the conflict.

That is what the Russian info operations wanted all along.

The problem for the Western media is the obsession with the underdog and for the US media, viewing other nations through the racial justice lens based on the American experience. So it isn't the tiny democratic Israeli nation full of mostly "brown but not poor" Jews surrounded by the massively larger Muslim and Arab nations, it is the small population of "brown and poor" Arabs abandoned by that Arab and Muslim world, used as tools for years by the Arabs, and now by the Iranians, to attack the Israelis. Add in the residual everpresent Western antisemitism, and you can easily get to BBC, NYT, Reuters, etc jumping to the victimhood claims of Hamas about an "own goal" on their own hospital that scuttled Biden's peace talks instead of them going "wait... maybe we shouldn't default side with a terrorist organization's narrative just because they are brown and a hospital blew up."

[californiagrown]

I could take your "both sides equally bad" apart by pointing out that is completely disconnected from the actual reality

Never said that, or implied that. That is something you completely made up. Im not equating the IDF with hamas. this was all in reponse to your claim that MSM universally sides with hamas and that they falsely report that the IDF is responsible for civilian deaths even when it is hamas that is responsible... which you claimed was entirely the case in these latest killings of civilians trying to get aid that was finally allowed in.

All i implied was that Israel also fired on civilians recieving aid and could have hit a few. Reports show pretty conclusively that hamas made a poiont of killing civilians trying to recieve aid and killed many. Israel also confirmed that IDF fired "warning shots" at civilians trying to get aid after hours. I wouldnt be surprised if some of those "warning shots" landed based on a seeming lack of care for civilian life shown numerous times by IDF individuals, and also a fairly natural byproduct in a closeborder war like this.

If you dont want media to report ALL the facts, thats fine. But, dont get mad when at others who want to hear the whole story and not just "hamas bad" repeated over and over again while ignoring everything else.

[summit]

CAgrown: I apologize for confusion, I didn't specify or quote d/t the TGR forum issues. My reply was in response to Nuclear Option last page saying

"This sort of stuff happens all the time. When they get it initially wrong because they find Hamas ... credulous"

"Both sides have unleashed brutality against innocents in the name of righteousness. And both sides lie about it. And the media puts both sides spin out there as 'credulous'"

Well, he doesn't seem to know what credulous actually means, he thinks that giving the Jews Hawaii is the best idea he can muster, and that Israel is a shithole nobody wants to live in... shows his general low information state on the subject that allows him to default to "both sides" dismissals the same as the conservatards I argue with who "both sides" the Ukraine v Russia war.

[The Nuclear Option]

So Israel does no wrong because Hamas are shit bags?

[summit]

Oh yea that's totally exactly what I said, nailed it. You see the only two possible world views as either "both sides bad" or "Israel perfect."

[The Nuclear Option]

Check yourself first Summit. You’re projecting all kinds of stuff all over anyone who does not agree 100% with you. Love the low information dig. Maybe both Hamas and the Israeli regime are shit bags. Ever occur to you? Or one side is holy?

[The Nuclear Option]

T minus X seconds until you resort to calling me an antisemite.

[summit]

Mohamed Sabry Soliman, the Egyptian illegal immigrant who torched 12 innocent people while screaming "Free Palestine," only threw 2 of his 18 molotov cocktails. It could have been far worse.

He said he had been planning the attack for a year, but wanted to let his daughter graduate highschool first... how fucked is that? Love this country enough to immigrate and put your offspring through our schools, but hate it so much you want to set people on fire. He said he wanted to shoot people, but was denied a gun purchase because of his immigration status, so he switched plans to burning people alive.

CO state charges of 16 counts of attempted murder and 18 counts of possession of incendiary devices and related offenses, plus a federal hate crime charge. That's life in prison for sure. More charges pending...

Talking to folks in the know, probably at least one of the more severely burned elderly victims will probably die.

[californiagrown]

Oh yea that's totally exactly what I said, nailed it. You see the only two possible world views as either "both sides bad" or "Israel perfect."

I dont see this at all like Russia/Ukraine.

Israel is absolutely fucking routing hamas, and it has never been close. Israel has not really been underthreat by hamas since Oct 7th. Because of that, we SHOULD be holding Israel to a higher standard, because they can easily afford to use restraint without giving up ANY advantage to their enemy.

Ukraine is in a fight for its life against a much stronger force, who is the aggressor, and is slowly losing. They cannot afford to use restraint.

[summit]

Nuclear: being critical of Israel is reasonable, but I find you are unfairly biased against Israel since you put them on the same level as Hamas. But I haven't seen you be antisemetic, except that you think the right thing to do is deport Jews from their homes and ancestral homeland to Hawaii... nevermind the native Hawaiians... and the millions of Israeli Muslims, Christians, Druzi, etc who would be left under Islamist repression in Israel in your "solution."

[summit]

CAgrown: I agree with what you said, but with two important nuances,

1. The Ukraine/Russia similarity is in how foreign info-ops are design to result in both-sides reductionism that allows for a lazy dismissal of morally dissimilar parties as "essentially the same" to create apathy that ultimately benefits the far more evil and destructive force.
2. While the immediate threat to Israel is now low, they do face the future perpetual threat of unacceptable Oct 7 style losses if they cannot permanently remove Hamas etc from simply rebuilding and repeating. But as we all agree, that is a tough nut to crack.

[The Nuclear Option]

Suppressing the Hawaiians would’ve been a lot easier than the Palestinians. We did Jews no favor by backing them into this tight little corner surrounded by Arabs in the veritable home of antisemitism.And besides IMO there is nothing holy about those lands. They have been profaned a thousand times over with evil deeds from just about every side. Holy wars, crusades, genocides, empires, kings, emperors, colonization, etc etc. A profane land. But everyone wants to claim their people as the chosen to rule the “holy lands.”“This is a mosque”“No a temple”“No a mosque”“Temple”“Mosque”Yeah. Fuck Hamas AND fuck Israel. Fuck Iran. Fuck Saudi Arabia. And fuck the fake Christian s too.

[californiagrown]

Fuck Hamas AND fuck Israel. Fuck Iran. Fuck Saudi Arabia. And fuck the fake Christian s too.

Username checks out.

[MultiVerse]

Can't it be true that hamas is shooting civilians trying to get aid. AND the IDF is firing at civilians ignoring IDF orders and warnings and stampeding to get aid? Seems like hamas sees gazan civilians as pawns in the war. And the IDF sees gazan civilians as animals, or at least lessers. War is hell. No one involved is right... except the civilians who just want peace.

Hamas has switched to planting roadside bombs (IEDs) as their primary military tactic. Just yesterday three IDF soldiers were killed by a bomb. That's why the IDF wants Palestinian civilians to stick to pre-checked routes. Whereas Hamas wants to incite people to deviate from the routes and do things like storm the aid distribution centers.

So what you're seeing in Jong's article above is Hamas disseminating false information by exaggerating the death toll. Some of which is incited or even executed directly by Hamas. The reason why Hamas is doing this is explained in the last paragraph of the article:

“Hamas is under pressure due to the food distribution operation managed by an American company, and is trying in every way to sabotage it,” Naftali Bennett, Israel’s former prime minister, wrote on social media. “Hamas wants to control the food, and through it, to control the people. Israel is denying Hamas this control.”

[californiagrown]

What kind of propoganda war is Israel waging in gaza? Seems like they should be dropping flyers with explicit instructions about aid, flooding the radio with updates, providing realtime news updates about hamas and IDF actions, etc. I'd assume they are doing all that, but haven't heard anything about it.

[MultiVerse]

Gazans have phones and electricity, there's little need for flyers. The IDF also coordinate with aid groups and first responders to try and deconflict. Because it's a war zone with one side embedding itself among the civilian population (a war crime) the safeguards often break down. Nearly every other building is booby-trapped and/or contains a tunnel entrance. Many of the U.N. workers, teachers, journalists, etc., act in a dual role both as government functionaries and as Hamas fighters. Hamas still has a lot of support among the non-combatant civilian population. Support for Hamas is a lot lower now than in the past, but there's still a lot of support. If the new aid distribution system works that will prevent Hamas from controlling humanitarian aid and support for Hamas will fall even further

[summit]

Hard to stand up to Hamas when they control the food as well as the security forces. /pessimist

Remove Hamas's control over food and it gives Gazan opposition a chance to choose a different path. /optimist

[MultiVerse]

Hamas also has a lot of international support. Somewhere around 25-percent of their NGO funding , for example, which gets funneled towards their military comes from the U.K. Hamas financiers have close ties with high level labor party politicians. It's difficult to overstate the extent to which the anti-Israel movement is enabling this conflict and also undermining the coexistence with Israel Palestinian peace movement

[highangle]

Suppressing the Hawaiians would’ve been a lot easier than the Palestinians. We did Jews no favor by backing them into this tight little corner surrounded by Arabs in the veritable home of antisemitism.And besides IMO there is nothing holy about those lands. They have been profaned a thousand times over with evil deeds from just about every side. Holy wars, crusades, genocides, empires, kings, emperors, colonization, etc etc. A profane land. But everyone wants to claim their people as the chosen to rule the “holy lands.”“This is a mosque”“No a temple”“No a mosque”“Temple”“Mosque&rdq uo;Yeah. Fuck Hamas AND fuck Israel. Fuck Iran. Fuck Saudi Arabia. And fuck the fake Christian s too.

Who the fuck gave you permission to extirpate peoples and shape worlds to your liking? Was it Jim Beam?

[The Nuclear Option]

LOL! Good one, and the ironic depth to it too. “permission!”
but just another century in the "holy lands." As long as we dont revert to any last century justifications and means like Leibensraum driven seizing and settlement of lands and containing and starving people in Ghettos or anything...PM when we get there and we can reassess my self ordained extirpating powers.

[californiagrown]

Gazans have phones and electricity, there's little need for flyers.

Sounds like Israel isnt really prioritizing cultural influence over gazan civilians. Israel could easily control the radio, internet, TV in gaza. If they arent HIGHLY prioritizing the psyops it seems like a missed opportunity that could be very impactful towards removing hamas, and at little cost (human or money).

[highangle]

I don't see the venn diagrams of 'your cool story' and 'reality' overlapping any time soon bro. Moreover you likely recognize that and seem content with 2 circles on a 2D plane. Nice