50 years to the day

[Dantheman]

Per the discussion on this page, one of the hardest things to grapple with is how to apply universal liberal values and human rights to a belligerent that categorically rejects those values and worships death instead.

It's the Kobayashi Maru of modern geopolitics.

[ex-powderbroker]

From the pure speculation dept:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-br...y?id=105102476

[Toadman]

From the pure speculation dept:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-br...y?id=105102476

Time for Canada to build a wall on their Southern border and have Donald J. Trump pay for it.

[Cisco Kid]

They are not sending us their best people.

[riser4]

Per the discussion on this page, one of the hardest things to grapple with is how to apply universal liberal values and human rights to a belligerent that categorically rejects those values and worships death instead.

This is an astute observation of the choice facing the US in the 2024 election.

[bodywhomper]

I am observing a very difficult struggle for progressive Israelis.

[J. Barron DeJong]

From the pure speculation dept:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-br...y?id=105102476

https://x.com/acyn/status/1727468341...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

[J. Barron DeJong]

Chotiner interview with Senator Ben Cardin:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and...n-human-rights

[highangle]

So J Barron Shadeen is still standing up for kidnappers?

"Oh not the kidnappers, they don't represent Palestine."

Yeah they do.

[mcski]

Luckily most Israelis don’t agree with you

[Cisco Kid]

No they don't and the majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas. They weren't born yet.

I guess you'd be confused and unable to fathom that the people of Medellín loved Pablo Escobar.

Please post links to how Israel made life in Gaza easier for people living there.

[highangle]

Lol hard to be candid when kidnappers still have your kids

[Cono Este]

No they don't and the majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas. They weren't born yet.

I guess you'd be confused and unable to fathom that the people of Medellín loved Pablo Escobar.

Please post links to how Israel made life in Gaza easier for people living there.

Well after packing up and leaving, and digging up their dead, they continued to provide water, electricity, and jobs. All the while being rocketed on an almost daily basis.
Absolutely ridiculous they did not snuff out Hamas 10 yrs ago.

They had every right to.

[highangle]

No they don't and the majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas. They weren't born yet.

I guess you'd be confused and unable to fathom that the people of Medellín loved Pablo Escobar.

Please post links to how Israel made life in Gaza easier for people living there.

Oh I didn't vote for the US Constitution either

But I get held into account for every Indian massacre and propped-up dictator in the world, so fuck all kidnapper apologists - Hamas is Palestine same as Black September, and the PLF, and those noble hijackers who threw Leon Klinghoffer and his wheelchair overboard the Achile Lauro.

That's Palestine - their best and brightest on the world stage

You'd have to dig deep in some jungle somewhere to find a more ignominious people than the Palestinians in my lifetime. One terrorist act after another. And here you are fucking supporting them after their latest fucking act of barbarism. bleagh

[summit]

What many non-antisemetic liberal Americans sympathetic to the Palestinian cause believe: that Hamas is holding the Palestinean people hostage and forcing them into the victimhood of war because Hamas is a terrorist death cult functioning as a totalitarian islamofascist government that has denied the Gazans free elections since 2006. This is demonstrably true and only up for debate in the fringe, and apparently, many college campuses.

However, what the many non-antisemetic liberal Americans sympathetic to the Palestinian cause want to further believe is that because Hamas is denying the Gazans freedom, the Palestinian people must share a desire for peace that is not genocidal/eliminationist, and that they yearn for a democratic and free Palestine that would have liberal values, just as any American would.

It is true that Hamas won the majority in Gaza and the plurality of Gaza+West Bank in 2006. Neverminded most Gazans aren't old enough to remember 2006 and aren't old enough to vote today. The moral compass was set in 2006 by those who were old enough to vote, do we deny the people any agency in their choices of government then, or now, and if so, how is that not a bigoted denial?

It is disingenuous, but true, to say that most alive today did not vote for Hamas. It is also disingenuous, but true, to rest that argument on the crime that Hamas and Fatah ceased to have any more elections since 2006. Many totalitarian governments were first elected. But why is that disingenuous when Gazans do not like Hamas? But where is the resistance against Hamas?

It is disingenuous, but true, to say that a poll showed most Gazans do not trust Hamas. The fact Gazans rightly view Hamas as corrupt unfortunately does NOT also mean they disagree with Hamas or their policy vis-a-vis Israel. There is no recent evidence for this position. In fact, most Palestinians do not support a two state solution, AND support the Hamas position of eliminating Israel.

That makes peace a difficult proposition. And it makes me doubtful that what replaces Hamas will be significantly better.

Today I am thankful for any ease in the suffering of innocents brought by the ceasefire. And I am thankful to live in the amazing-though-imperfect nation that I live in with all of its liberty, freedoms, protections, and benefits.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Article discussing political views in Gaza:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023...for-hamas.html

“Recent survey data paints a much more complicated picture of Gazan public opinion than conventional wisdom would have you believe. In a Washington Institute poll in July, a 57 percent majority indicated a positive opinion of Hamas, but greater numbers expressed positive views of both Fatah (the secular party in charge of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank) and other armed groups. However, over 60 percent supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel, and 50 percent said Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction and support a two-state solution instead. Other recent polling from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research found that 77 percent of Gazans want new legislative and presidential elections in the Palestinian territories, but 67 percent of all Palestinians don’t see that happening anytime soon. In a hypothetical election, Hamas would win slightly over Fatah, 34 to 31 percent, but a 43 percent plurality of Palestinians believe neither group deserves to represent them.Meanwhile, 73 percent said they believed there was corruption in Hamas-run institutions in the Gaza Strip, and 59 percent of Gazans said they could not criticize Hamas authorities without fear. These data points are important in understanding why the second part of the argument for collective blame (“Why don’t they just get rid of them?”) is nonsensical.”

[Cisco Kid]

Oh I didn't vote for the US Constitution either

But I get held into account for every Indian massacre and propped-up dictator in the world, so fuck all kidnapper apologists - Hamas is Palestine same as Black September, and the PLF, and those noble hijackers who threw Leon Klinghoffer and his wheelchair overboard the Achile Lauro.

That's Palestine - their best and brightest on the world stage

You'd have to dig deep in some jungle somewhere to find a more ignominious people than the Palestinians in my lifetime. One terrorist act after another. And here you are fucking supporting them after their latest fucking act of barbarism. bleagh

Oh you poor boy. So much self imposed guilt about Americas past. I get held into account by some for letting little boys penises get cut off and handle it somehow.

PS No one I know supports the radical Hamas. They support Palestinian children and babies.

[gravitylover]

Well after packing up and leaving, and digging up their dead, they continued to provide water, electricity, and jobs. All the while being rocketed on an almost daily basis.
Absolutely ridiculous they did not snuff out Hamas 10 yrs ago.

They had every right to.

Yup

fuck all kidnapper apologists - Hamas is Palestine

That's Palestine - their best and brightest on the world stage

You'd have to dig deep in some jungle somewhere to find a more ignominious people than the Palestinians in my lifetime. One terrorist act after another... bleagh

I saved the best parts


Why is it so hard to get coverage of the shit going on in NYC today? My kids are watching shit on tiktok and telling me what's happening but the mainstream sources aren't talking about it at all. Fukn drivel

[Cono Este]

What many non-antisemetic liberal Americans sympathetic to the Palestinian cause believe: that Hamas is holding the Palestinean people hostage and forcing them into the victimhood of war because Hamas is a terrorist death cult functioning as a totalitarian islamofascist government that has denied the Gazans free elections since 2006. This is demonstrably true and only up for debate in the fringe, and apparently, many college campuses.

However, what the many non-antisemetic liberal Americans sympathetic to the Palestinian cause want to further believe is that because Hamas is denying the Gazans freedom, the Palestinian people must share a desire for peace that is not genocidal/eliminationist, and that they yearn for a democratic and free Palestine that would have liberal values, just as any American would.

It is true that Hamas won the majority in Gaza and the plurality of Gaza+West Bank in 2006. Neverminded most Gazans aren't old enough to remember 2006 and aren't old enough to vote today. The moral compass was set in 2006 by those who were old enough to vote, do we deny the people any agency in their choices of government then, or now, and if so, how is that not a bigoted denial?

It is disingenuous, but true, to say that most alive today did not vote for Hamas. It is also disingenuous, but true, to rest that argument on the crime that Hamas and Fatah ceased to have any more elections since 2006. Many totalitarian governments were first elected. But why is that disingenuous when Gazans do not like Hamas? But where is the resistance against Hamas?

It is disingenuous, but true, to say that a poll showed most Gazans do not trust Hamas. The fact Gazans rightly view Hamas as corrupt unfortunately does NOT also mean they disagree with Hamas or their policy vis-a-vis Israel. There is no recent evidence for this position. In fact, most Palestinians do not support a two state solution, AND support the Hamas position of eliminating Israel.

That makes peace a difficult proposition. And it makes me doubtful that what replaces Hamas will be significantly better.

Today I am thankful for any ease in the suffering of innocents brought by the ceasefire. And I am thankful to live in the amazing-though-imperfect nation that I live in with all of its liberty, freedoms, protections, and benefits.

You can stop sugar coating it now summit. I know the truth appalls you, after all these are mostly democrats at odds with you, but time to suck it up.


To these people, The greater Palestinian cause, (whatever that may be in someone’s mind) out weighs even the most heinous of terrorism on Oct 7th.

Same people have no problem with deadly rocket attacks into Israel for 20 yrs, because in their twisted minds, it’s justified.

If I’m Israel, I’d see that if any other democrat was in charge but old Joe, Hamas would be getting aid. So we can only hope Israel completely destroys Hamas and Hezbollah when they are done. Because lord knows, these nut jobs would put Hamas in charge if they could. Teach their children to murder Jews in school.

Strange days.

[Cisco Kid]

What many non-antisemetic liberal Americans sympathetic to the Palestinian cause believe: that Hamas is holding the Palestinean people hostage and forcing them into the victimhood of war because Hamas is a terrorist death cult functioning as a totalitarian islamofascist government that has denied the Gazans free elections since 2006. This is demonstrably true and only up for debate in the fringe, and apparently, many college campuses.

However, what the many non-antisemetic liberal Americans sympathetic to the Palestinian cause want to further believe is that because Hamas is denying the Gazans freedom, the Palestinian people must share a desire for peace that is not genocidal/eliminationist, and that they yearn for a democratic and free Palestine that would have liberal values, just as any American would.

It is true that Hamas won the majority in Gaza and the plurality of Gaza+West Bank in 2006. Neverminded most Gazans aren't old enough to remember 2006 and aren't old enough to vote today. The moral compass was set in 2006 by those who were old enough to vote, do we deny the people any agency in their choices of government then, or now, and if so, how is that not a bigoted denial?

It is disingenuous, but true, to say that most alive today did not vote for Hamas. It is also disingenuous, but true, to rest that argument on the crime that Hamas and Fatah ceased to have any more elections since 2006. Many totalitarian governments were first elected. But why is that disingenuous when Gazans do not like Hamas? But where is the resistance against Hamas?

It is disingenuous, but true, to say that a poll showed most Gazans do not trust Hamas. The fact Gazans rightly view Hamas as corrupt unfortunately does NOT also mean they disagree with Hamas or their policy vis-a-vis Israel. There is no recent evidence for this position. In fact, most Palestinians do not support a two state solution, AND support the Hamas position of eliminating Israel.

That makes peace a difficult proposition. And it makes me doubtful that what replaces Hamas will be significantly better.

Today I am thankful for any ease in the suffering of innocents brought by the ceasefire. And I am thankful to live in the amazing-though-imperfect nation that I live in with all of its liberty, freedoms, protections, and benefits.

Cool op ed. Happy Thanksgiving.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I’d see that if any other democrat was in charge but old Joe, Hamas would be getting aid.

Do you have fucking brain worms?

I just posted an interview with the Democrat who leads the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. A guy whose career has focused on human rights abuses. Who thinks there needs to be a two-state solution. But is unwilling to place any conditions whatsoever on military aid to Israel.

[ex-powderbroker]

these are supposedly palestinians flashing heart signs today to idf soldiers. it seems to be a pretty complicated situation there:

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bjtmihjv6

i absolutely think most palestians do not like israelis and a good chunk of those believe in armed struggle against it. but, that’s not everyone and thinking should not be a crime punishable by death.

i hope the cease fire lasts long enough for everyone to realize that this problem can’t be solved with weapons (imo)

[highangle]

Oh you poor boy. So much self imposed guilt about Americas past. I get held into account by some for letting little boys penises get cut off and handle it somehow.

PS No one I know supports the radical Hamas. They support Palestinian children and babies.

They support bad parenting and armed incursion and the elimination of Israel too, your little circle of friends.

Maybe they're a negative influence on you?

[gravitylover]

Do you have fucking brain worms?

I just posted an interview with the Democrat who leads the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. A guy whose career has focused on human rights abuses. Who thinks there needs to be a two-state solution. But is unwilling to place any conditions whatsoever on military aid to Israel.

Another American moron thinking that we can project our desires and they are therefore more valid. One side of this war doesn't want a two-state solution. The refusal to acknowledge it as a viable solution is apparently just too hard to understand.

[ex-powderbroker]

RUHROH, get your speculation engines running again

https://x.com/griptmedia/status/1727...813792310?s=20