Looking for BOA Beta

[doebedoe]

.... The weight gain for the XTD is especially disappointing as the original version was a damn good touring boot. When that boot came out, along with the Zero G Tour Pro, it felt like a 20 year dream realized. Finally the compromises when going uphill and downhill were very, very small and they didn't fit like Kleenex boxes! But now this segment of the market has stalled. Those boots are what, 4 and 5 years old? When will we see the next step forward? ...

As someone still skiing my Gen1 XTD Ultras which weighs in at 1350g in 27.5 -- this sentiment explains why I haven't bought new touring boots in 5 years. I can trade off 2-300g and get better walking for something that skis significantly worse. Or I can just struggle on with a 1350g boot that skis like a near-alpine boot. I've done week long hut trips with >4k a day in them.

If I could find a 12-1400g boot that walked better than my XTD and skied similarly I'd pay good money. But so far I save 150g for a boot that walks way way better, but skis way worse. Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious....

[optics]

Just chiming in to say that it’s super cool to have two principal product designers of industry-leading companies bantering back and forth with all of us over-opinionated weirdos.

From the long view, pre-exodus from powmag (and k2 before that… full circle!)…whodathunkit.

Thanks ONK and Tom for even indulging the conversation. The fact that you’re doing it says everything we need to know.

[plugboots]

As it is I'll probably limp my boots through another season

Maybe this boa thing isn’t for you. 30 years ago when I was almost strong, I broke the shit out of every boot I owned, especially I knocked buckles off. The Lang rep told me to get plug boots which I did, (I broke buckles on those too, but nothing else). I also don’t like the boa on my F1 LT’s so my new hawx ultra XTD’s don’t have the boa. I’m giving it a few years. And yes, I know that the atomic hawx boa is 50 million times stronger than my boa on my Scarpa.

[skis_the_trees]

I briefly looked and didn't see anyone link to this relevant Blister podcast:

https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/g...ss-herr-ep-262

[Buster Highmen]

Molitor from 1967, ahead of their time:



Note the toe groove for the simplex toe.

[tompietrowski]

Molitor from 1967, ahead of their time:



Note the toe groove for the simplex toe.

This was sent to me from a shop in Switzerland

[Jason4]

As someone still skiing my Gen1 XTD Ultras which weighs in at 1350g in 27.5 -- this sentiment explains why I haven't bought new touring boots in 5 years. I can trade off 2-300g and get better walking for something that skis significantly worse. Or I can just struggle on with a 1350g boot that skis like a near-alpine boot. I've done week long hut trips with >4k a day in them.

If I could find a 12-1400g boot that walked better than my XTD and skied similarly I'd pay good money. But so far I save 150g for a boot that walks way way better, but skis way worse. Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious....

In my experience for typical mid-winter touring I'll prioritize range of motion and ski quality over weight and would much rather have a heavier boot that walked better than a lighter boot that walks worse. That changes in the spring when big traverses and volcano skiing is more typical but not for mid-winter fall line pow laps.

I think you finished by describing the design brief for boots like the Backland XTD. I've tried them on but have not bought a pair (although I'm close to doing it) and they walk around the carpet comparably to the other Backlands that I have (many pairs already) but they feel more substantial. It's hard to say if they'll have better progression in their flex but that's the feel I got. I don't care to ski the Backlands because they are stiff until they aren't, slightly modified they are perfect for splitboarding but I'm not really sure how someone can say they ski well.

[Buster Highmen]

This was sent to me from a shop in Switzerland

I have a pair of these somewhere:



Heschung, worn by Patrick Russel of the French Ski team, circa 1969-70

[gregL]

I have a pair of these somewhere:



Heschung, worn by Patrick Russel of the French Ski team, circa 1969-70

Heschung was a fringe choice, I had Le Trappeur Pros as well as the Rossignol Stratos and the Look non-releasable turntables.

[GoldenBC]

After trying on a number of Boa boots, I’m less excited about them as I was last spring. I’m not sure my final thoughts but they seem to have less advantages and more drawbacks than people talk about. I’ll try to summarize my random thoughts and see what others think about it.

Unless the boot fits perfectly, the boa creates many pressure points. Just like a buckle boot. The Hawx ultra fits me quite tight from the box so the boa doesn’t need to do much and therefore has no effect for me. The Salomon is very roomy and the Boa is unable to tighten the ankle sufficiently, but creates large downward pressure under the Boa dial. The K2 is roomy and cinches up very smoothly with the boa but to get tight enough, it still creates and obvious band of pressure under the dial and across the first length of cable. Basically no difference over buckles, the shell just needs to be fit properly.

The boa dial is slow. I can do up a buckle much faster than I can spin a dial ten times.

It’s harder to get into, marginally. I don’t normally struggle to get into boots but you definitely can’t open the boot up as far. The boa dial on the k2 liner makes this even worse.

You can independently control the tension in different areas of the boot. I want to lock in my ankle but have my toes loose and the boa has no way of doing this. Will be a deal breaker for touring especially.

Manually punching the shells is more challenging. Atomic’s large rigid deflector shield right at the 6th toe does not look friendly to work with.

As I said, I could see if being real slick with a snug fitting boot and I’d love to try it in a fitted Hawx ultra. But alas, Amer has destroyed the shop proform program so I doubt that will ever happen.

[gregL]

After trying on a number of Boa boots, I’m less excited about them as I was last spring. I’m not sure my final thoughts but they seem to have less advantages and more drawbacks than people talk about. I’ll try to summarize my random thoughts and see what others think about it.

Unless the boot fits perfectly, the boa creates many pressure points. Just like a buckle boot. The Hawx ultra fits me quite tight from the box so the boa doesn’t need to do much and therefore has no effect for me. The Salomon is very roomy and the Boa is unable to tighten the ankle sufficiently, but creates large downward pressure under the Boa dial. The K2 is roomy and cinches up very smoothly with the boa but to get tight enough, it still creates and obvious band of pressure under the dial and across the first length of cable. Basically no difference over buckles, the shell just needs to be fit properly.

The boa dial is slow. I can do up a buckle much faster than I can spin a dial ten times.

It’s harder to get into, marginally. I don’t normally struggle to get into boots but you definitely can’t open the boot up as far. The boa dial on the k2 liner makes this even worse.

You can independently control the tension in different areas of the boot. I want to lock in my ankle but have my toes loose and the boa has no way of doing this. Will be a deal breaker for touring especially.

Manually punching the shells is more challenging. Atomic’s large rigid deflector shield right at the 6th toe does not look friendly to work with.

As I said, I could see if being real slick with a snug fitting boot and I’d love to try it in a fitted Hawx ultra. But alas, Amer has destroyed the shop proform program so I doubt that will ever happen.

Agree with much of this, I'm in a Hawx Ultra XTD 130 Boa and am quite happy with it. As you note, each manufacturer who participated in the Boa development program picked a "volume" to add it to, with Fischer and Salomon going medium volume (the K2 variable 97-100mm last is really more like 99-102mm). Atomic was the only one to put Boa on a low volume shell. FWIW, I would never choose an RC4 MV, Salomon S/Pro, or K2 Mindbender even with buckles as the fit is too roomy. This is a function of manufacturer choice of which last to put the Boa on rather than a fault of the Boa itself.

I've punched a couple Atomic Ultra Boa boots without issue, but the metal tab wants to pop out (you can bend it with a couple screwdrivers while on the press) and you need some sort of arch device (not a ring) to span the protective "ramp."

Yes, the Boa liner on the K2 sucks - they should have made the laces about 2" longer, and even so they get tangled inside the shell every time you put it on.

IMO, the Boa on the Hawx Ultra XTD is more comfortable over the instep, and you can leave it very loose while skinning without your foot sliding fore/aft . . .

Next season will see a bunch more Boa options, presumably some with low volume fits.

[LeeLau]

Like Greg I found the Boa on the Atomic to loosen the boot quite a bit when undone and tighten the instep a lot when secured. I guess it all depends on one's foot; which really isn't a terrible surprise

[GoldenBC]

Like Greg I found the Boa on the Atomic to loosen the boot quite a bit when undone and tighten the instep a lot when secured. I guess it all depends on one's foot; which really isn't a terrible surprise

I think what he was saying is that it tends to hold his instep securely without being too tight on the toes, so he doesn't need independent control to have comfort while touring.

I could potentially agree with that as I find that I have to generally over tighten the instep to get the forefoot tighter. That could equate to a decent heel hold with roomy toes while loosened while touring, potentially. It also means my forefoot isn't tight enough when my instep is already too tight. So back to my issue, lack of independent control kind of sucks for people who like to currently use all their buckles.

[gregL]

I think what he was saying is that it tends to hold his instep securely without being too tight on the toes, so he doesn't need independent control to have comfort while touring.

Right, I meant it can be left surprisingly loose (visible slack in the cable system) and your foot doesn't slide fore and aft while skinning.

[gregL]

I've had a couple people with low volume feet insist on trying the K2 and Salomon Boa boots, and complain that they can't get it tight enough for their tastes. (i.e. the Boa can't make the "wrong" last into the "right" last). The Mindbender 130 Boa is already their LV "97-100mm" fit . . . maybe the rumored 96mm plug Boa boot Tom P. has mentioned will be a solution. Hopefully Salomon has an S/Pro Alpha Boa ready for next season. Atomic will add Boa to the Hawx Prime lineup next season, for now the only real low volume Boa option is the Hawx Ultra XTD.

[LeeLau]

Ok. Golden and Greg. On that I agree.

I would add that the Boa ( to me) seemed to give an even feel of tightening over the entire foot

[plugboots]

Ya know…all these Boa observations during this first season reminds me a lot of the observations folks have after buying an AT binding in the first season.

[gregL]

Ya know…all these Boa observations during this first season reminds me a lot of the observations folks have after buying an AT binding in the first season.

Well, I got mine in March of last season, so have skied them a bit.

[GoldenBC]

Ok. Golden and Greg. On that I agree.

I would add that the Boa ( to me) seemed to give an even feel of tightening over the entire foot

Out of curiousity, were you able to test that on two identical boots? I would think that would have more to do with a proper fit than boa. While it does offer a unique tightening experience, if the boot doesn’t fit your foot evenly, you have no ability to compensate with Boa.

[plugboots]

Well, I got mine in March of last season, so have skied them a bit.

I know. Thanks for your help, BTW.

[tompietrowski]

I've had a couple people with low volume feet insist on trying the K2 and Salomon Boa boots, and complain that they can't get it tight enough for their tastes. (i.e. the Boa can't make the "wrong" last into the "right" last). The Mindbender 130 Boa is already their LV "97-100mm" fit . . . maybe the rumored 96mm plug Boa boot Tom P. has mentioned will be a solution. Hopefully Salomon has an S/Pro Alpha Boa ready for next season. Atomic will add Boa to the Hawx Prime lineup next season, for now the only real low volume Boa option is the Hawx Ultra XTD.

The mindbender is not an LV boot it is a MV boot with an last range which can vary but as we have said alot the heel and other areas will not adapt so these are still MV boots. We have HV coming next season and then LV the year after that, we are out in Austria testing the LV boot this week actually. But yeah just because the last has a bigger range does not mean the BOA boots will fit all feet, you still need to get the volume correct.

I will admit our marketing has not been great saying this can replace an LV and MV boot but that is only K2's LV and MV buckle boots. Like lange we use a system where the “MV” and “LV” use the same internal last which only changes the width at the forefoot. So although we have been saying LV and MV for years we should have been saying MV with two different lasts. So yes our BOA boots replace what we call LV and MV, that does not mean BOA replace the need for a true LV boot.

[tompietrowski]

Out of curiousity, were you able to test that on two identical boots? I would think that would have more to do with a proper fit than boa. While it does offer a unique tightening experience, if the boot doesn’t fit your foot evenly, you have no ability to compensate with Boa.

This is exactly right. BOA will improve the fit of a boot in a shell which is a decent shape for a foot and it will also help a bigger range of people fit in a boot but it will not make a shell magically fit any foot.

[tompietrowski]

Yes, the Boa liner on the K2 sucks - they should have made the laces about 2" longer, and even so they get tangled inside the shell every time you put it on.

We have heard this feedback quite a bit. I thought the added fit and the performance offered was worth it for a 130/115 customer but we are being told otherwise. We have instead reverted back to a standard lace liner in the 130/115 next season and we be releasing a new BOA liner in F24 in the 140/125 boots which is much easier to put on while still offering the same performance advantages.

[LeeLau]

Out of curiousity, were you able to test that on two identical boots? I would think that would have more to do with a proper fit than boa. While it does offer a unique tightening experience, if the boot doesn’t fit your foot evenly, you have no ability to compensate with Boa.

I've owned a Scarpa F1 for years with a Boa. It always had a high volume instep so even the Boa didn't give me that unique tightening experience. Solved the fit with a volumizer fwiw.

To someone else upthread who commented re the first year Boa. They've been used in ski boots and on snowboard boots for while

[tompietrowski]

I've owned a Scarpa F1 for years with a Boa. It always had a high volume instep so even the Boa didn't give me that unique tightening experience. Solved the fit with a volumizer fwiw.

To someone else upthread who commented re the first year Boa. They've been used in ski boots and on snowboard boots for while

Over 20 years in snowboard boots now. Have you had the chance to try our mindbender boa yet lee? I forgot I was meant to find you a pair.