Looking for BOA Beta

[Beder]

My boots fit me well. I keep the lower two just tight enough to stay closed. And it's not unusual for me to get on the chair and discover that I've forgotten to buckle them at all. So I'm wondering why I need this fabulous new way of closing my boots.

[onenerdykid]

My boots fit me well. I keep the lower two just tight enough to stay closed. And it's not unusual for me to get on the chair and discover that I've forgotten to buckle them at all. So I'm wondering why I need this fabulous new way of closing my boots.

Every boot fitter should tell every skier that in a properly sized & fit boot, you close your shell buckles on a loose setting. This is because buckles do not wrap a shell properly - they tighten and then collapse the shell, causing pressure points. When the shell wraps around your foot more evenly, you can tighten the boot without getting those pressure points. This is what the BOA system achieves. So yes, I can ski my 1cm shell fit, foam liner boots with my shell not tightened but I can also wrap the shell around my foot more comfortably, increase responsiveness, and not put undue pressure on my foot. It's just better.

[schindlerpiste]

I wonder whether, in addition to the obvious potential to snap the cable or sustaining a knob malfunction, there exists a point at which the knob mechanism will get caked with ice and/or otherwise freeze. I would hate to have to wait for my knob to thaw before taking boots off after 6 hours in them in icy cold conditions.

[tompietrowski]

I wonder whether, in addition to the obvious potential to snap the cable or sustaining a knob malfunction, there exists a point at which the knob mechanism will get caked with ice and/or otherwise freeze. I would hate to have to wait for my knob to thaw before taking boots off after 6 hours in them in icy cold conditions.

We have not found that problem yet in over 4 years of testing. One reason it does not happen is the dial is bi-directional so simply turning the dial in both directions will totally clear any ice build-up which may possibly occur. As Matt said most of us are still using the exact same setups we first got years ago, which is not something I can say for any buckle boot I have tested.

[dcpnz]

While some skepticism is probably reasonable there is some extreme FUD in this thread from those who can’t seem to understand that this new boot BOA is radically different from the stuff of old used on bike shoes and light touring boots.

[carlh]

When can we get a hawx ultra fit and stance boot with boas and redster weight? Extra points for a 140 flex. Pretty sure you can sell one pair of 28.5s

[waxloaf]

While some skepticism is probably reasonable there is some extreme FUD in this thread from those who can’t seem to understand that this new boot BOA is radically different from the stuff of old used on bike shoes and light touring boots.

This. I don’t have a dog in the fight and won’t be buying new boots for several more years (hopefully), but the “anti” BOA arguments in here so far seem to be missing the point. Time will tell of course


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tompietrowski]

When can we get a hawx ultra fit and stance boot with boas and redster weight? Extra points for a 140 flex. Pretty sure you can sell one pair of 28.5s

I can say we have that on the way from K2 I'm sure atomic do too though.

[adrenalated]

Yeah it really would be the same as a buckle as you say and actually, because the dial does have the breakaway feature you may well find it's slightly safer. The BOA guys are big sledders so spend a lot of time out in the backcountry of Steamboat so you can be assured BOA boots have already spent a lot of hours on the sled.

I'm kinda curious to hear you expand on this experience with people testing these on sleds. Although buckles can certainly get caught too, from photos the knob sticks out WAY further than a buckle and I can see it definitely getting caught much easier. I'm sure this poses more technical challenges but I'd really like to see the dial on the top of the boot to get it away from running boards, rocks when bootpacking, etc.

As someone with an extremely low volume foot I love the idea of Boa.

[tompietrowski]

I'm kinda curious to hear you expand on this experience with people testing these on sleds. Although buckles can certainly get caught too, from photos the knob sticks out WAY further than a buckle and I can see it definitely getting caught much easier. I'm sure this poses more technical challenges but I'd really like to see the dial on the top of the boot to get it away from running boards, rocks when bootpacking, etc.

As someone with an extremely low volume foot I love the idea of Boa.

So personally I have only spent about 4 days on sleds with my pairs of BOA boots, but as I said the BOA guys sled a lot. They actually have two sleds at the factory in Denver and head up to Steamboat a lot, steamboat is where Greg the founder lives. I also know they had boots for on sledders feet as part of the long-term test program which happened pre-launch.

As for moving the dial on top of the foot there are a number of issues with doing that. Part of the reason you get the improved wrap is the placement of the dials and the guides. Move the dial on top of the foot and you could lose the first cross over the instep. You could potentially use the dual pull dial instead but then you are complicating things and it's unlikely you will get such a good closure. Instead, we worked to ensure the dial was well protected. We built up a fairly substantial deflector around the dial both from the front and bottom. The dial itself will require a reasonable amount of force to dislodge and I can say I have yet to dislodge a dial in over 4 years and that is not through lack of trying. We purposely don't baby the boots just to see what could happen. This is my original test boot and you can see some of the damage the dial got but it has never once disengaged.

[CouloirInTheLines]

When can we get a hawx ultra fit and stance boot with boas and redster weight? Extra points for a 140 flex. Pretty sure you can sell one pair of 28.5s

Seconded. I’ve got LV feet and I alternate between buckles off with sloppy skiing and buckles tight with my feet cramping up or going numb. Excited to try BOA but waiting for some heavy LV styles.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Seconded. I’ve got LV feet and I alternate between buckles off with sloppy skiing and buckles tight with my feet cramping up or going numb. Excited to try BOA but waiting for some heavy LV styles.

Not doubting that BOA will help, but have you tried on something like a Lange RS 140? It’s drastically lower volume than an RX 130 LV. Much much more than the 2mm stated last difference would suggest. Like going from some buckles almost maxed out, to almost as loose as they can go.

[onenerdykid]

Posting this video for a couple of reasons:
1. it demonstrates the repair process and how straightforward it is.
2. it shows the type of force required to pop the dial off its mounting plate (officially known as the "bayonet").
3. it shows the difficulty of cutting the cable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW7wYgRJLK8

[CouloirInTheLines]

I haven’t but will keep on the radar. Probably not buying new boots this year anyway for budget reasons but will add that to the list to try when I’m ready. Currently on Hawx Ultras from a few years ago.

[adrenalated]

Not trying to be a dick, but that's a very pristine looking boot for 4 seasons of wear. That's probably less than a season for me. This is what my touring boots look like after 4.5 seasons of backcountry skiing (weekend warrior, around 20-25 days of touring a year).

[doebedoe]

Not trying to be a dick, but that's a very pristine looking boot for 4 seasons of wear. That's probably less than a season for me. This is what my touring boots look like after 4.5 seasons of backcountry skiing (weekend warrior, around 20-25 days of touring a year).

Treat yourself to some proper liners. Those OG orange ones suck.

[adrenalated]

Treat yourself to some proper liners. Those OG orange ones suck.

Most of my days in these boots have been with other liners.

[tompietrowski]

Not trying to be a dick, but that's a very pristine looking boot for 4 seasons of wear. That's probably less than a season for me. This is what my touring boots look like after 4.5 seasons of backcountry skiing (weekend warrior, around 20-25 days of touring a year).

I mean you are comparing a TPU boot (mine) to a much softer shell (grilamid?) in your pair there We design the Mindbender to be a hard wearing boot admittedly at the expense of a slight weight hit, these are around 1800g. If you look at the heel and toe areas ours are comparable but that midsole just has way more wear on yours.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

We design the Mindbender to be a hard wearing boot admittedly at the expense of a slight weight hit, these are around 1800g.

I appreciate you sharing your expertise, but you are dipping into some "slight" marketing BS that you should save for another crowd. onenerdykid has earned a lot of respect and trust here by recognizing his audience.

As Adrenalated said, those boots look pretty minty regardless of material.

But these Boa boots are pretty beat. The soles are shredded. Lot of rocks. Original liners thrashed. And no boa issues (and I believe this is an older generation boa).



I think boa can be durable on a ski boot beyond my personal sample size of one (uh.... two, I guess). I'd have to ski some boa and non-boa boots with the same last back to back to swear that it is a better solution, but I've heard enough people I respect attest to the advantage that I suspect it's more than a gimmick.

But with any newish tech I worry about unforeseen problems. Even if the BOA itself is solid, will every manufacturer integrate it properly? What are the implications for boot mods? How much does the location of the wheel and the surrounding plastic matter (my gut says the K2 design is better)? I'm sure designers considered all these things carefully, but we all know that the real testing for ski gear is done by the customers (see all the "innovative" but flawed tech bindings we've seen or Salmon Quests with glued-in tech fittings). I'll wait a year before considering any of these boots.

[tompietrowski]

I appreciate you sharing your expertise, but you are dipping into some "slight" marketing BS that you should save for another crowd. onenerdykid has earned a lot of respect and trust here by recognizing his audience.

As Adrenalated said, those boots look pretty minty regardless of material.

But these Boa boots are pretty beat. The soles are shredded. Lot of rocks. Original liners thrashed. And no boa issues (and I believe this is an older generation boa).



I think boa can be durable on a ski boot beyond my personal sample size of one (uh.... two, I guess). I'd have to ski some boa and non-boa boots with the same last back to back to swear that it is a better solution, but I've heard enough people I respect attest to the advantage that I suspect it's more than a gimmick.

But with any newish tech I worry about unforeseen problems. Even if the BOA itself is solid, will every manufacturer integrate it properly? What are the implications for boot mods? How much does the location of the wheel and the surrounding plastic matter (my gut says the K2 design is better)? I'm sure designers considered all these things carefully, but we all know that the real testing for ski gear is done by the customers (see all the "innovative" but flawed tech bindings we've seen or Salmon Quests with glued-in tech fittings). I'll wait a year before considering any of these boots.

All I was getting at is its not really relevant to compare a TPU boot to a PA boot, obviously the PA boot is going to get beaten up much more. We use TPU for that exact reason that was all I was getting at and the fact they look minty as you say after use at least partly backs that up. Sorry if that comes over as marketing BS but we select materials for different products based on the end use and how we want the product to perform. We could build the Mindbender from pebax or grillamid to save weight if that was the goal of the product but that's not what we wanted. We wanted a more durable boot which skis like an alpine boot hence the choice to go TPU. Perhaps this is common knowledge for all here but its not everywhere so my apologies if this sort of info on products is not appreciated here.

But that's not really the point, the reason I posted the image was to show the dial damage and the fact it can sustain damage like that and not pop off so or stop the system for functioning as intended.

[onenerdykid]

But with any newish tech I worry about unforeseen problems. Even if the BOA itself is solid, will every manufacturer integrate it properly? What are the implications for boot mods? How much does the location of the wheel and the surrounding plastic matter (my gut says the K2 design is better)? I'm sure designers considered all these things carefully, but we all know that the real testing for ski gear is done by the customers (see all the "innovative" but flawed tech bindings we've seen or Salmon Quests with glued-in tech fittings). I'll wait a year before considering any of these boots.

Re: your points:
- every manufacturer has to get each shell size approved by BOA. BOA is quite strict on the placement of each component, the lace angles each component creates, and how each component is integrated into the shell.
- the protective shell ramp has a minimum height specified by BOA and BOA needs to sign off on its effectiveness.
- the BOA system doesn't really get in the way of customizing the shell. You can even stretch the dial area.

[adrenalated]

My point was that backcountry skiing, especially sleds and bootpacking through talus (both of which are common use cases for me), beats the FUCK out of boots, especially on the outside of the lower shell where the Boa dial is positioned on all these new boots. Softer/harder plastic or not, the boot posted above looks like it was skied primarily in the resort or skinning which is fine but it doesn't tell me anything about real world backcountry durability for my use case. IMO there isn't a lot of abuse evident on that dial pictured. Don't just look at the plastics, look at my buckles - somehow I haven't broken one yet, but I've needed to bend them back straight many times because they just get beat to all hell.

If placing the dial on the top of the boot is a non starter due to restrictions from Boa or whatever, I get that. But I'd still feel a lot more comfortable shelling out $900+ for a first generation boot if the dial was placed in a location that I know is less likely to experience heavy abuse, even if it were slightly less effective at fully wrapping the foot. As it is I'll probably limp my boots through another season and see how they hold up for people that do the kind of skiing I do. Plus hopefully some lower volume options will exist by then.

[tompietrowski]

My point was that backcountry skiing, especially sleds and bootpacking through talus (both of which are common use cases for me), beats the FUCK out of boots, especially on the outside of the lower shell where the Boa dial is positioned on all these new boots. Softer/harder plastic or not, the boot posted above looks like it was skied primarily in the resort or skinning which is fine but it doesn't tell me anything about real world backcountry durability for my use case. IMO there isn't a lot of abuse evident on that dial pictured. Don't just look at the plastics, look at my buckles - somehow I haven't broken one yet, but I've needed to bend them back straight many times because they just get beat to all hell.

If placing the dial on the top of the boot is a non starter due to restrictions from Boa or whatever, I get that. But I'd still feel a lot more comfortable shelling out $900+ for a first generation boot if the dial was placed in a location that I know is less likely to experience heavy abuse, even if it were slightly less effective at fully wrapping the foot. As it is I'll probably limp my boots through another season and see how they hold up for people that do the kind of skiing I do. Plus hopefully some lower volume options will exist by then.

Yeah makes sense. Yeah I don’t personally have any boots with boa with worse damage to show I’m afraid. But I will say I’m confident with the way we built up the shell around the dial and the testing we have done that the position of the dial will not be an issue for most users.

But your comment of repositioning the dial is an interesting one. The top of the foot is not the position to move it in my opinion but that’s not to say there is not a different position for it. We have tried some but currently we have not found one which works any better than the current solution. I have seen one very interesting placement of the lower dial for a race boot which is intriguing though so is this the final placement who knows but for now I do believe this is the best solution.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Sorry if that comes over as marketing BS...

What got me was the word "slight." These new boots and the recent growth of this category seems to all signal a shift in the market driven not by a core demographic of backcountry skiers, but by a group of backcountry-curious skiers who will own a single pair of boots. Sure, a PU touring boots makes sense for sled skiers, but we know they aren't all that plentiful.

I have nothing against a heavy touring boot, and would own a pair if they fit my skiing habits, but I was a lot more excited when companies were focused on finding the balance that maximized uphill and downhill capability. The weight gain for the XTD is especially disappointing as the original version was a damn good touring boot. When that boot came out, along with the Zero G Tour Pro, it felt like a 20 year dream realized. Finally the compromises when going uphill and downhill were very, very small and they didn't fit like Kleenex boxes! But now this segment of the market has stalled. Those boots are what, 4 and 5 years old? When will we see the next step forward?

If the PU shell adds around 150-200g (good guess?) I'd say that isn't "slight" at all. Then you add things like a grip walk sole and a 400g liner and you've got a mediocre touring boot that doesn't ski as well as 10 year alpine boots from the thrift store. That's still a useful product for lift accessed touring or sled skiing or for the 230 pound linebacker-turned-ski-mountaineer. I'm glad those folks are going to have some better options. But if they sell like hotcakes it'll be as the lift line jewelry du jour along the lines of Shifts mounted on a pair of pink Black Crows.

In other words, I'm selfish. I see all the cool new boots for the skinny ski and lycra crowd, and I see all the emphasis on refining 50-50 boots and I think, "What about me?" So when I hear about a "slight weight hit" for boots than weigh more than 20 year old Scarpa Lasers after they've been stiffened up with a Flexon tongue, I roll my eyes like a co-ed getting hit on by Benny Profane.

Re: your points:
- every manufacturer has to get each shell size approved by BOA. BOA is quite strict on the placement of each component, the lace angles each component creates, and how each component is integrated into the shell.
- the protective shell ramp has a minimum height specified by BOA and BOA needs to sign off on its effectiveness.
- the BOA system doesn't really get in the way of customizing the shell. You can even stretch the dial area.

I hope it all works as planned. Good to know about stretching the dial area.

[tompietrowski]

What got me was the word "slight." These new boots and the recent growth of this category seems to all signal a shift in the market driven not by a core demographic of backcountry skiers, but by a group of backcountry-curious skiers who will own a single pair of boots. Sure, a PU touring boots makes sense for sled skiers, but we know they aren't all that plentiful.

I have nothing against a heavy touring boot, and would own a pair if they fit my skiing habits, but I was a lot more excited when companies were focused on finding the balance that maximized uphill and downhill capability. The weight gain for the XTD is especially disappointing as the original version was a damn good touring boot. When that boot came out, along with the Zero G Tour Pro, it felt like a 20 year dream realized. Finally the compromises when going uphill and downhill were very, very small and they didn't fit like Kleenex boxes! But now this segment of the market has stalled. Those boots are what, 4 and 5 years old? When will we see the next step forward?

If the PU shell adds around 150-200g (good guess?) I'd say that isn't "slight" at all. Then you add things like a grip walk sole and a 400g liner and you've got a mediocre touring boot that doesn't ski as well as 10 year alpine boots from the thrift store. That's still a useful product for lift accessed touring or sled skiing or for the 230 pound linebacker-turned-ski-mountaineer. I'm glad those folks are going to have some better options. But if they sell like hotcakes it'll be as the lift line jewelry du jour along the lines of Shifts mounted on a pair of pink Black Crows.

In other words, I'm selfish. I see all the cool new boots for the skinny ski and lycra crowd, and I see all the emphasis on refining 50-50 boots and I think, "What about me?" So when I hear about a "slight weight hit" for boots than weigh more than 20 year old Scarpa Lasers after they've been stiffened up with a Flexon tongue, I roll my eyes like a co-ed getting hit on by Benny Profane.



I hope it all works as planned. Good to know about stretching the dial area.

Got it makes way more sense now. Yeah I guess it comes down to what these boots all are. I in no way consider the Mindbender a touring boot, we class them as freeride but in all honesty they are alpine boots with walk modes and tech inserts. People actually using these to "tour" in are using Dukes or shifts these are not being used for long missions. They are for accessing gnarly terrain and skiing aggressively, at least that's the ideal. The reality is these are used inbounds 85% of the time.

Compared to the XTD I would say that's much closer to our Dispatch boot. Those are 1500g and they actually tour pretty well for what we call a free tour boot. Again not for huge missions but if you want to get out there on slightly longer day trips these are a massive step forward in comparison to the Mindbender. The 300G saving mainly comes from the shell although the liner is now actually the same and they do ski ok but they dont ski like an alpine boot which is what you get from the Mindbender.

It would be great to devote more to this style of boot but unfortunately its a real niche. Where freeride boots like the MB sell ok, although sales are tiny compared to alpine boots, free tour boots are magnitudes smaller still. And the touring market has really stalled post covid, which makes it harder still. But it will come back and we will work on it again its just unfortunately for a small team like ours we can only work on one shell family a season so devoting a year to a niche product is tough.