Backcountry Approach Bike Thread

[1000-oaks]

Mid-drive fatty for $2k, and sometimes goes on sale. https://www.rambobikes.com/electric-bike/rambo-750w/

[Ville]

Kenovo works fine also as aproach bike!

Lähetetty minun LYA-L29 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[alive]

Any gravel bike with 2.0+ tires are ideal. While skis on a rack would be nice, a super light setup on the back isn’t too bad.
Also think we need two threads… one for the bikes, one for the motorbikes

[Spats]

well if its made by Cannondale at least its a real bicycle company and you can probably get parts

If I read it right the bike has a throttle which i thot was not legal ?

Most US states have adopted the following classifications for bicycles on the road (including FS roads):
Class 1: Pedal assist only, up to 20 MPH. Every e-mountain bike sold in any bike shop is Class 1. (No, they can't be "derestricted" to make more power and you can't add a throttle.)
Class 2: Pedal and/or throttle, up to 20 MPH.
Class 3: Pedal only, up to 28 MPH.
All classes are limited to 750 Watts maximum power output.
All of these are legally classified as bicycles.

(An aside: Most cheap ebikes you see on the road are hub motors with a throttle, and therefore Class 2. This is because hub motors almost never have a torque sensor and therefore don't "know" to help you until you're already moving, unlike mid-drives which can sense that you're pushing the pedals. This is why mid-drives are generally considered better and used on higher-end ebikes: the pedal assistance is far more natural and just feels like you're really strong, instead of requiring you to work a throttle. The other major disadvantage of hub motors is they make fixing rear flats or changing rear tires very difficult! And, of course, they're impractical for full-suspension bikes because they add so much unsprung weight.)

The problem is trails. Despite universal rulings that ebikes are bicycles, not motorcycles, and every study showing that Class 1 ebikes have no impact over regular mountain bikes, a number of local jurisdictions (parks districts, FS districts, etc.) have said "hurr durr they're all motorcycles, even class 1 ebikes." The result is that there is no standard, and no way to know in any specific area what's legal and what isn't. Of course this is completely ignored since enforcement is impossible and no one actually cares. The number of ebikes I see on our local trails goes up every year: it was about 10% two summers ago, about 15% last year, and this year about 1 out of 3 bikes I see on the trail is an ebike. I've never seen anything but a class 1 ebike on a trail.

(The acoustic bikes are generally car-shuttling, which shuts down the environmental argument. In practice, ebikes substitute for car shuttles. I can ride my ebike up the road faster on about five cents of electricity than anyone can drive two laps up and down in their car using a gallon of gas.)

Despite the fact that the correct action would be to define Class 1 ebikes as trail-legal and Class 2 and 3 as road-legal only, I'm not familiar with any local jurisdiction that has made such a ruling. They all seem to either permit all ebikes or ban them altogether.

[stuckathuntermtn]

When you guys are riding e-bikes, are you mostly just on roads of some kind?
E-bikes are banned on every trail that isn't motorized around here, and a big reason for that is our stupid, bike hostile Forest Circus. I really have no problem with their legalized use on what would otherwise be dirt roads that maintainers and other workers already drive up and down. Especially if we can teach the peds to get to the right. There are actually (small) signs here that say no ebikes and the only people I have ever seen ignoring or not knowing about them are entitled boomers not from here. Also, lol if you need an ebike to get up trails around here. If they're steep, they're pretty smooth; if they're not that smooth, they're not usually that steep either.
They are allowed on the town trails(maybe?), paths, and bike lanes. Of course there are no signs about keeping right and some of the new bridges put the bike lanes on the sidewalk. Fucking brilliant all around. I feel like a lot of these are the same people who stand on the left side of escalators, or just think they're for camping on in general.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Most US states have adopted the following classifications for bicycles on the road (including FS roads):
Class 1: Pedal assist only, up to 20 MPH. Every e-mountain bike sold in any bike shop is Class 1. (No, they can't be "derestricted" to make more power and you can't add a throttle.)
Class 2: Pedal and/or throttle, up to 20 MPH.
Class 3: Pedal only, up to 28 MPH.
All classes are limited to 750 Watts maximum power output.
All of these are legally classified as bicycles.

(An aside: Most cheap ebikes you see on the road are hub motors with a throttle, and therefore Class 2. This is because hub motors almost never have a torque sensor and therefore don't "know" to help you until you're already moving, unlike mid-drives which can sense that you're pushing the pedals. This is why mid-drives are generally considered better and used on higher-end ebikes: the pedal assistance is far more natural and just feels like you're really strong, instead of requiring you to work a throttle. The other major disadvantage of hub motors is they make fixing rear flats or changing rear tires very difficult! And, of course, they're impractical for full-suspension bikes because they add so much unsprung weight.)

The problem is trails. Despite universal rulings that ebikes are bicycles, not motorcycles, and every study showing that Class 1 ebikes have no impact over regular mountain bikes, a number of local jurisdictions (parks districts, FS districts, etc.) have said "hurr durr they're all motorcycles, even class 1 ebikes." The result is that there is no standard, and no way to know in any specific area what's legal and what isn't. Of course this is completely ignored since enforcement is impossible and no one actually cares. The number of ebikes I see on our local trails goes up every year: it was about 10% two summers ago, about 15% last year, and this year about 1 out of 3 bikes I see on the trail is an ebike. I've never seen anything but a class 1 ebike on a trail.

(The acoustic bikes are generally car-shuttling, which shuts down the environmental argument. In practice, ebikes substitute for car shuttles. I can ride my ebike up the road faster on about five cents of electricity than anyone can drive two laps up and down in their car using a gallon of gas.)

Despite the fact that the correct action would be to define Class 1 ebikes as trail-legal and Class 2 and 3 as road-legal only, I'm not familiar with any local jurisdiction that has made such a ruling. They all seem to either permit all ebikes or ban them altogether.

The FS didn’t classify e bikes as motorcycles they said a bicycle was human powered only.
Meaning that e-bikes aren’t allowed on non motorized trails but are allowed on multi use trails where motorcycles are allowed. Doesn’t seem to matter because e-bikes ignore this ruling or claim ignorance.

I take exception with your statement that bicycles are generally shuttling, I never shuttle and know lots of people that don’t.

Hyperbole and misinformation helps no one.


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[El Chupacabra]

While I'm generally opposed to mopeds ob trails, I see the usage as approach tools for skiing. I'm all for ebikes for street use, commuting, that sort of thing. Trails are different.

Anyway, this popped up on slickdeals. Could be worth a try.
https://slickdeals.net/f/16802507-av...b4f7a9e43a9933

[Benneke10]

I got a class 1 emtb this year which has been a lot of fun to use as a ski approach tool, joining a friend who has been using one for a few seasons. Early spring I rode from my house up to trailheads nearby and was able to ride the first mile or two of some trails before they got too rough or snowy. If you're not riding super difficult trails you can do short rides with touring boots on which is really convenient. Once the lower elevations melted out more we went down to Utah County where you can approach big, beautiful ski lines via high quality single track from the valley floor. These days were some of the highlights of my season. Once all other options were out, the ebikes were helpful for riding up the service roads at ski resorts to access high elevation scraps of snow.

Riding single track with ski gear on the pack had a rough learning curve for me. I've been riding mountain bikes for a while but I'm not an expert rider. In the spring especially, a lot of trails are bushy with overhanging branches and snagging the skis on vegetation was frustrating. I broke the ski carry loop on one pack and came close to breaking another. Having a true diagonal carry is critical, because you will hit your head against the skis more and your boots will bash into stuff if you A-frame. Walking a 55lb ebike through steep, rough, bushy sections can be very exhausting, especially before I learned that my bike had a hike-assist button (still tough even with hike-assist).

Most land management agencies here in the Wasatch seem to be indifferent to ebikes, which are becoming more and more popular. Most trails are managed by the Forest Service, and only the most popular trails have signs that prohibit ebikes, and these trails are not very relevant with regards to approaching ski lines (Crest and vicinity). The only other bike trails in the area that have signs prohibiting ebikes are in Park City and the Basin Trails System in Summit County, also mostly irrelevant for spring skiing, although I doubt anyone would care if you rode PCMR service roads to get a late season session on Jupiter Peak. I see people riding on the Crest and in Park City on ebikes regularly though, and I rarely see any enforcement. The one place where there is a presence I have seen is in Upper Millcreek, and I agree that is no place for ebikes given the popularity of those trails with other users.

[Spats]

The FS didn’t classify e bikes as motorcycles they said a bicycle was human powered only.
Meaning that e-bikes aren’t allowed on non motorized trails but are allowed on multi use trails where motorcycles are allowed. Doesn’t seem to matter because e-bikes ignore this ruling or claim ignorance.

I take exception with your statement that bicycles are generally shuttling, I never shuttle and know lots of people that don’t.

Hyperbole and misinformation helps no one.

In my area, nearly all mountain bike trails are overwhelmingly shuttled by acoustic bikers.

• Tahoe Meadows to anywhere? All shuttles. (Less than 1% of riders ever ride up to it.)
• Spooner to Kingsbury? All shuttles. (Same...less than 1% ever grind all the way around on 50.)
• Stinger? About 90% shuttles. I do see people ride up it occasionally, although more and more of them are riding ebikes
• Corral/Connector? About 80% shuttles, until the USFS closed the road due to the Caldor fire.
• Van Sickle? About 90% shuttles. People do ride up the road sometimes, or even up the trail.
• TRT out towards Monument/Star Lake? Easily 98% shuttles. If someone's going farther than Van Sickle, they're almost never riding up.

Each area is different, but that's my experience in Tahoe.
In contrast, I haven't ever shuttled my ebike! I just ride up.
Banning ebikes just means more cars on the road.

Also, recall that the Wilderness Act prohibits "mechanized travel" -- which includes AT gear by any sane definition, as the combination of AT bindings and AT boots are at least as mechanically complicated as a bicycle. Yet no one argues that wilderness skiing should be limited to 3-pin tele bindings and laced leather duckbill boots!

One of the unintended consequences of blanket ebike bans is the eruption of e-motorcycle poaching: Sur-Rons, Talarias, and such. As long as it's just as illegal to ride a Class 1 ebike as an actual motorcycle, people figure "I'll just ride the motorcycle." And suddenly all the smart people who insist that ebikes are ACKSHUALLY just motorcycles find out that they're not the same at all -- as anyone who has ever ridden both on trails can attest.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

In my area, nearly all mountain bike trails are overwhelmingly shuttled by acoustic bikers.

• Tahoe Meadows to anywhere? All shuttles. (Less than 1% of riders ever ride up to it.)
• Spooner to Kingsbury? All shuttles. (Same...less than 1% ever grind all the way around on 50.)
• Stinger? About 90% shuttles. I do see people ride up it occasionally, although more and more of them are riding ebikes
• Corral/Connector? About 80% shuttles, until the USFS closed the road due to the Caldor fire.
• Van Sickle? About 90% shuttles. People do ride up the road sometimes, or even up the trail.
• TRT out towards Monument/Star Lake? Easily 98% shuttles. If someone's going farther than Van Sickle, they're almost never riding up.

Each area is different, but that's my experience in Tahoe.
In contrast, I haven't ever shuttled my ebike! I just ride up.
Banning ebikes just means more cars on the road.

Also, recall that the Wilderness Act prohibits "mechanized travel" -- which includes AT gear by any sane definition, as the combination of AT bindings and AT boots are at least as mechanically complicated as a bicycle. Yet no one argues that wilderness skiing should be limited to 3-pin tele bindings and laced leather duckbill boots!

One of the unintended consequences of blanket ebike bans is the eruption of e-motorcycle poaching: Sur-Rons, Talarias, and such. As long as it's just as illegal to ride a Class 1 ebike as an actual motorcycle, people figure "I'll just ride the motorcycle." And suddenly all the smart people who insist that ebikes are ACKSHUALLY just motorcycles find out that they're not the same at all -- as anyone who has ever ridden both on trails can attest.

You sound unhinged. AT bindings aren’t mechanized by any sane definition. Maybe people in the Tahoe area are lazy. Anecdotes and opinion aren’t facts. Keep up the good fight wanker!


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[plugboots]

Yeah, AT bindings are mechanized travel.
I guess those horse riding fat fuckers should ride bareback and naked too.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yeah, a hinge is mechanized


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[XXX-er]

When you guys are riding e-bikes, are you mostly just on roads of some kind?
E-bikes are banned on every trail that isn't motorized around here, and a big reason for that is our stupid, bike hostile Forest Circus. I really have no problem with their legalized use on what would otherwise be dirt roads that maintainers and other workers already drive up and down. Especially if we can teach the peds to get to the right. There are actually (small) signs here that say no ebikes and the only people I have ever seen ignoring or not knowing about them are entitled boomers not from here. Also, lol if you need an ebike to get up trails around here. If they're steep, they're pretty smooth; if they're not that smooth, they're not usually that steep either.
They are allowed on the town trails(maybe?), paths, and bike lanes. Of course there are no signs about keeping right and some of the new bridges put the bike lanes on the sidewalk. Fucking brilliant all around. I feel like a lot of these are the same people who stand on the left side of escalators, or just think they're for camping on in general.

before spending 12K on a high end SC with 7/ 7 travel I checked to make sure there was social license, so I talked to the 2 paid builders and the paid club VP so these are the cool kids , they are all riding E-bikes or want to be riding E-bikes and they said ya no problem, so cha-ching

I have clocked about 3000 kms almost exclusively at the area on trails ( no dirt roads ) in 2 seasons my average speed in that time is only 12kph so its tight and twisty, a bar buddy from Bend who moved here ( cuz he didnt need to live in the USA you know some guy with the sprinter van) tells me the trails are steeper than what he has seen and my 12KPH average would back that up, so lots of steep bermed trails that wind back and forth, the trails are built with government $$$, the last project this spring was 80K, the BC provincial gov is throwing money at this stuff , I'm hearing about trails paid for by the gov every where and no body seems to care if you ride an e-bike except maybe in Whistler but thats a fucked up place anyway

the only rules are don't braid, don't ride wet trails and uphill rider has right of way but canadians will just pull over and say sorry cuz

I have never seen cheap e-bikes on the local mtn bike trail system or any of the machine built trails cuz the bikes are just too heavy, the trails are too tight, too many obstacles and the riders of those bikes just don't have the skills

[riff]

Well! I never thought about single track ski access. For me it would simply be Forest Service roads, before they open to motorized use. Seems like a safe bet for the old debate of what exactly an Ebike really is. Enjoy the verbal basketball if you’re so inclined….


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[XXX-er]

actualy Lou Dawson was doing E- bike ski approach, you might find some archived articals

[kamtron]

Over where I am in the NW corner of WA, there are a couple forest roads with logging gates and good skiing beyond. One can bike up them, but 2000' of climbing at an average 10% grade makes for a lot less energy for skiing. There are also a number of trailhead roads that washed out and are easily e-bikeable but would add similar amounts of vert, e.g. the Heliotrope ridge road at Mt Baker which adds 2000' of vert over 4.5 miles or so. Having some power to assist with that is what I'm thinking about.

Plus I want to use it for commuting, because my new commute is a bit farther with a big hill, and I don't like getting too sweaty.

I've done quite a lot more research and am settling on mid-drive options, because it sounds like that's the only thing that's good on sustained, steep hills. I don't necessarily need a mountain bike or suspension, but the bigger tires will be nice on some of these logging roads. There aren't a ton of options that fit mountain tires and don't come with a suspension fork.

Here're a few things on my list now

https://ride1up.com/product/prodigy/
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/tu...=349388-216846
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/tu...=348371-206159
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...rCode=bluedark
https://surlybikes.com/bikes/skid_loader

Since I plan to use it for daily commuting, it's probably worth it for me to invest a bit more than the minimum.

[Benneke10]

Kamtron, the Turbo Tero is the only bike you listed that makes sense for riding off road in the mountains regularly because the gearing on the others is too steep, even with e-assist. If you can budget over 3k, its probably worthwhile to find a lightly used e-mtb with a transferrable warranty on the motor and battery if you plan on riding off road a lot.

[Dromond]

Kamtron are those very numbers to access snow line in mid winter, or specifically the spring season when the snow line is higher? I’m a little familiar with some of the roads but haven’t skied from them. Too bad pow is too soft for fat bike tires.

[kamtron]

Dromond, Heliotrope trailhead is that distance if the road is snow-free, so think early season and come spring. Mid winter it's snowmobile terrain.

I'm not planning on proper off-roading, Benneke. But some of these are rough roads we are talking about.

[kamtron]

I got on a Tero the other day and cruised up the biggest hill by the shop with no problems. Think I'm leaning towards the Vado, however. The included commuter gear and upgraded components seem worth it. Plus I can replace the chainring for climbing if it's over-geared.

[1000-oaks]

For fat bike conversions, CYC just dropped the gen-4 X1 Pro: https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-pro-gen-4 To stay Class-3 with an X1 (the smaller Stealth kit won't fit a fat bike), you could omit throttle, set the motor to 750W, and set max assist speed to 28mph. Or keep the throttle and set max assist speed to 20mph. Don't need really assist going faster than 20 mph anyway.

Something needs to be done about these brazen e-MX dirt bikes though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POoAu5Gd5Y It's BS when they claim they're "class 2", and then angry hikers lump them together with legal ebikes when trying to close trails. LEO's needs to figure out that anything electric over 70 lbs with a throttle gets the same ticket as a gas dirt bike or quad when illegally used. Keep a scale in the trunk of the cruiser.

[BFD]

I put this photo in the skinny ski thread. It probably fits here better. Since my son put it on social media hopefully he doesn't mind me posting it again. The New Zealand approach rig.

[North]

Let's talk ski carry systems. I'm using an ebike to ride to the resort, and plan to use it for FS approaches this spring. I've done a bit of bike to ski but not enough to hash out the best system just yet. I can make something decent, just want to be on a the right path to start. I'm planning to either wear my boots or chuck them in my front rack/basket.

Things I've tried:
1) Skis on back - not my favorite, I think it's better to have the skis on the bike.
2) Skis strapped to top tube horizontally - this is OK, but I dislike riding bowlegged to avoid the bindings, and my ebike is a step through so it's not as easy as a regular top tube setup.
3) Skis on rear rack flat (skis the trees photo 2) - huge bouncy lever, not sturdy enough bumps.

Skis on rear rack with edges on rack looks like the best option (Skis the trees photo 3 and BFD). Any consensus? I like the idea of having them angled up like I do on my sled but not sure it's necessary.

[coldfeet]

I posted this pic in the thread about ski carry widgets, but here seems on topic. The skis are together on one side of the top tube. There is a typical rear rack, which the skis and my tent (brown bag) and other junk are bungeed onto. With the skis in this position, the bindings are well back of my legs and I didn't have to pedal bowlegged. I should have collapsed the poles and moved them to the back, but I got lazy or in a hurry.

It seems to me that having the skis sticking out the back like this would be more manageable on non-technical singletrack than carrying them on your pack. I didn't ride any singletrack with this setup, it was riding/pushing up a closed Forest Service road for some camping and very tame skiing by TGR posters' standards. Some parts of the road were too steep for me to ride easily with all that stuff and a backpack. However, even pushing the loaded bike seemed easier than walking while carrying a camping load.

Also, another aspect of bike access, which is probably obvious to everyone in this thread, is that even on an unpowered MTB, it makes the exit a breeze. Instead of walking a few miles out at the end of the weekend, I just had to jump on the bike, mostly coasting, and was back at the car in well under 30 minutes.

[skis_the_trees]

...Skis on rear rack with edges on rack looks like the best option (Skis the trees photo 3 and BFD). Any consensus? I like the idea of having them angled up like I do on my sled but not sure it's necessary.

I still think this option is by far the best (i.e. my last photo in my previous post on page 1). The weight distribution is good (no bounce of the skis) and they don't get in the way at all while riding. I can angle mine up/down or flat because the pieces of wood that substitute for ski boot sole are just held with one bolt in the middle allowing them to pivot up or down depending on your preference. It also makes getting them on/off easy to click the skis in and then rotate into position adjacent to the top tube. Construction with wood is also very quick, easy, and cheap if you want to make a prototype then improve on it with a second and third version. It is plenty strong and secure for the weight of my touring skis.

For short rides across town to the local ski hill shuttle (~5miles) I sometimes just wear my touring boots. The yellow bike in photos also has a front rack now which makes adding a couple panniers super easy.