Educate me on bases

[Pinned]

I've been buying and trying a bunch of different skis and have noticed some aren't so fast. My Stocklis are pretty fast. My DPS are like rocket ships. I have two pairs of Moments (WC108 and WC both 20/21 models) and one is much faster than the other...but I'm not sure why as they have roughly the same treatment and the same wax.

Not sure how correlated this is, but the DPS bases do seem quite fragile whereas the Moment bases are absolutely bomber.

What makes some bases faster than others? Is it the material? Is it the structure / grind? Is it possible to make slow bases quicker?

[Shorty_J]

Subscribed.

I have theories but no knowledge.

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[alude]

If I understand correctly, on a material level, faster bases have more graphite in them (to dissipate heat), which also makes them more brittle/fragile.

I don't know much about structure/grind/wax.

[halliday]

Subscribed also. Great thread topic.

[SacTo]

I've been buying and trying a bunch of different skis and have noticed some aren't so fast. My Stocklis are pretty fast. My DPS are like rocket ships. I have two pairs of Moments (WC108 and WC both 20/21 models) and one is much faster than the other...but I'm not sure why as they have roughly the same treatment and the same wax.

Not sure how correlated this is, but the DPS bases do seem quite fragile whereas the Moment bases are absolutely bomber.

What makes some bases faster than others? Is it the material? Is it the structure / grind? Is it possible to make slow bases quicker?

Bases are like sponges, they dry out. Wax every 3 days or so. Keep in mind how much of the base is in contact with the snow and what the mass of the ski is. How much moisture is in the snow and what the surface temperature of the snow is.
We don’t ski on the snow, we ski on a thin layer of water created by our skis.

[SacTo]

Some great reading here:
https://www.racewax.com/base-structure-theory/

[Dee Hubbs]

First base is kissing and making out.
Second base is touching above the waist.
Third base is stimulating anywhere below the waist.
Fourth base, or home base, is having sexual intercourse.

[Cork7 Belly Flop]

Does "same treatment" include micro-hair removal with scotch-brite/fibertex? Because that can cause drag on the snow. Also if one pair of skis is dirtier than the other it won't accept as much wax into the base.

Edge/ptex damage can also cause drag. So if you've hit more rocks with one pair than another then that might be a small factor in the different speeds.

I don't know a whole lot about specific structure patterns but I know that having the wrong coarseness can slow the skis down:
- Coarse structure on dry snow -> Sharp crystals lodge in base grooves and cause drag.
- Fine structure on wet snow -> Flatter base creates surface tension/suction (base concavity can cause this too).

Then there's all the wizardry of conditioning bases to accept more wax (which I would love to learn myself).

Blister had a podcast on World Cup Ski Tuning that touches on most of these topics.

[toast2266]

All of my skis get very little attention in terms of tuning. Wax maybe a couple times a year. They all have plenty of base imperfections, and I'm sure they're all glacially slow compared to a properly waxed race ski. But despite that, some of them are noticeably faster than others in pretty much all conditions. Like Pinned said, Moments are slow. Dynastars are fast. Praxis are medium. The old, rarely waxed dynastars are faster than the brand new praxises. So it doesn't feel like it's just a tuning issue, but I really have no idea.

[Pinned]

First base is kissing and making out.
Second base is touching above the waist.
Third base is stimulating anywhere below the waist.
Fourth base, or home base, is having sexual intercourse.

I'm leaning to fourth being the fastest base, but unclear what temperature of wax is best.

Some great reading here:
https://www.racewax.com/base-structure-theory/

Thanks, will give this a read!

Does "same treatment" include micro-hair removal with scotch-brite/fibertex? Because that can cause drag on the snow. Also if one pair of skis is dirtier than the other it won't accept as much wax into the base.

Edge/ptex damage can also cause drag. So if you've hit more rocks with one pair than another then that might be a small factor in the different speeds.

I don't know a whole lot about specific structure patterns but I know that having the wrong coarseness can slow the skis down:
- Coarse structure on dry snow -> Sharp crystals lodge in base grooves and cause drag.
- Fine structure on wet snow -> Flatter base creates surface tension/suction (base concavity can cause this too).

Then there's all the wizardry of conditioning bases to accept more wax (which I would love to learn myself).

Blister had a podcast on World Cup Ski Tuning that touches on most of these topics.

I'll give that Blister episode a listen.

Strangely, the faster of the two Moments has had ptex work done while the others haven't. They otherwise get the same clean, brush, and wax done to them. I've skied both in similar conditions / temps over the last couple years and one pair is slower pretty much always.

I haven't done any micro-hair removal. But I do wonder if it's worth having the slower pair ground with a different structure? They aren't that slow, but I can tell the difference back to back.

[ZomblibulaX]

Not all base material is created equal, and not all bases have the same potential to become fast. As was said above, seemingly small things like contamination can make a huge difference.

As far as base material, the sintered polyethylene comes in big rolls, and typically the fastest material will be around the middle of the roll. So that's usually what gets chopped up for race skis, while the ends turn in to more budget-oriented skis, and the rest of the models get what's in between. There's a not insignificant amount of variance in porosity/density/hardness/etc. and it makes a big difference on snow.

Color makes a big difference in glide, durability, and how clean your structure comes out. Clear bases are typically harder than black, which is why they started doing split bases on race skis back in the day, and you still see it today. (Harder base at the tip of the ski because the snow is colder/less affected by the ski gliding across it, softer material in the back of the ski where the snow has melted and the ski is gliding on a film of water under the base). Some techs still wax slightly colder in the tip than the tail to accommodate the difference in the snow temp and water content, especially in speed disciplines and speed skiing. Hardness of the base material helps determine the breakaway point, which is the temp at which the ski begins to glide on the snow. So clear bases can be faster in cold, new, and dry snow, where abrasion resistance is important because the sharper dendrites of the snow crystals cause excess drag on the base. Black bases can be faster in warmer/wetter/older/machined snow conditions where the snow has transitioned and the water content has increased. But that's all before you even take in to consideration prep, structure, wax, contaminants, et al.

Structure can make a massive difference depending on the moisture content of the snow, the shape and condition of the snow crystals and the moisture potential in the snow. Weight and speed also play a big factor, because a skier weighing 40 kg and topping out at 50 kph is going to affect the snow under the ski FAR less than a skier weighing 90 kg going 120 kph. So a bigger skier will need a coarser structure designed to move more water, while a lighter skier will need a lighter, finer structure designed to reduce dry friction or drag. This can mean changing the inclination of the pattern slightly to change how quickly the water moves out to the edges, just speeding up the feed on the same structure to extend the "grain" of the pattern, or a completely different grind for the same snow conditions depending on the discipline.

Bright solid colored bases are straight up slower. I will die on this hill if I must. Solid color bases other than black do not finish as cleanly when grinding, don't absorb wax as well, and don't retain wax as well. I think it has to do with the dyes making the material softer and therefore less likely to cut cleanly when grinding, and more likely to fuzz up from skiing.

And even if you grind your skis exactly the same, use the same wax melted at the same temp with the same saturation, let it cool for the same amount of time, and scrape it the same, the brushing can make a huge difference in glide properties. For instance, finishing with a nylon brush will leave a very thin sheen of wax on the base, which is great for softer waxes in old/wet/transformed conditions, while finishing with a horsehair brush will pull more wax out of the structure and leave a "drier" finish for performance in new/dry/cold snow where reducing drag is paramount.

Basically, your skis all feel different because they are all different, even if you prep them the same. But yes, almost any base can be made relatively fast, some just take more work for certain conditions. Just wax your skis a bunch and they'll all be pretty damn quick. You don't even need fancy expensive wax, just do it a lot.

And purple bases are always slow.

[CptnCrunch]

When I raced xc I got some skate skis made from the sweet part of the base material roll. They were noticeably faster. My wife got a pair also. Hers had the best glide of any ski I’ve I ever worked with.

[chewski]

First base is kissing and making out.
Second base is touching above the waist.
Third base is stimulating anywhere below the waist.
Fourth base, or home base, is having sexual intercourse.

But where does drinking piss fit into this diamond?

I'm sorry for ruining this constructive thread... anecdotally i find the bases of high end volkls, blizzards, kastles and the like to be quite fast. They generally have solid black bases. I find on3p's and heritage labs (so far) bases to be exceptionally hard and durable. 4frnt (at least before the j-skis buy out) had the most garbage, softest/thinnest bases of all time. Everything was a coreshot and nothing had enough base to be repaired. I am not the only one i know of to experience this either. But generally die cut and super colorful/patterned bases have not been as durable (except on3p) or fast as solid black bases in my experience. I am aware of sintered vs extruded and am not smart enough to speak on this further. I just wanted to offer something of limited value after jumping on dee hubb's comment

[Jacques Strap]

Stay away from Peavy. Ibanez always felt cheap and brittle sounding to me. The Gibson models just look too much like their six strings, but they play alright I guess. Can’t go wrong with a P-bass for that chunky sound, or a Jazz bass if you like to move a little faster. Or go full-on Lemmy McCartney and get a hollow body

They still make Spectres? Those things are fucking sweet

[gaijin]

I’m not a scientist but I will admit that I always cringe at skis offered with colorful and/or die-cut bases. They play it like some sort of marketing ploy.

I specifically asked 4FRNT to run all sintered.

That was legitimately my only request to the ski— that they run a full black sintered base.

But I’m an asshole who gets ignored. I run constant graphite wax for fighting static and I know that white and yellow bases have a feel to them.

I can’t prove it. I’m not a racer. Free skiers tell me I’m not supposed to care, or even be able to feel it, but fuck them.

Black, soft, fragile, sintered bases haul ass.

[Doremite]

Thanks for the knowledge ZX

[yeahman]

Stay away from Peavy. Ibanez always felt cheap and brittle sounding to me. The Gibson models just look too much like their six strings, but they play alright I guess. Can’t go wrong with a P-bass for that chunky sound, or a Jazz bass if you like to move a little faster. Or go full-on Lemmy McCartney and get a hollow body

They still make Spectres? Those things are fucking sweet

You're talking about basses, not bases, and those are fish. There are largemouth, smallmouth, striped...the list goes on.

https://a-z-animals.com/animals/bass/

[gregL]

Not all base material is created equal, and not all bases have the same potential to become fast. As was said above, seemingly small things like contamination can make a huge difference.

As far as base material, the sintered polyethylene comes in big rolls, and typically the fastest material will be around the middle of the roll. So that's usually what gets chopped up for race skis, while the ends turn in to more budget-oriented skis, and the rest of the models get what's in between. There's a not insignificant amount of variance in porosity/density/hardness/etc. and it makes a big difference on snow.

Color makes a big difference in glide, durability, and how clean your structure comes out. Clear bases are typically harder than black, which is why they started doing split bases on race skis back in the day, and you still see it today. (Harder base at the tip of the ski because the snow is colder/less affected by the ski gliding across it, softer material in the back of the ski where the snow has melted and the ski is gliding on a film of water under the base). Some techs still wax slightly colder in the tip than the tail to accommodate the difference in the snow temp and water content, especially in speed disciplines and speed skiing. Hardness of the base material helps determine the breakaway point, which is the temp at which the ski begins to glide on the snow. So clear bases can be faster in cold, new, and dry snow, where abrasion resistance is important because the sharper dendrites of the snow crystals cause excess drag on the base. Black bases can be faster in warmer/wetter/older/machined snow conditions where the snow has transitioned and the water content has increased. But that's all before you even take in to consideration prep, structure, wax, contaminants, et al.

Structure can make a massive difference depending on the moisture content of the snow, the shape and condition of the snow crystals and the moisture potential in the snow. Weight and speed also play a big factor, because a skier weighing 40 kg and topping out at 50 kph is going to affect the snow under the ski FAR less than a skier weighing 90 kg going 120 kph. So a bigger skier will need a coarser structure designed to move more water, while a lighter skier will need a lighter, finer structure designed to reduce dry friction or drag. This can mean changing the inclination of the pattern slightly to change how quickly the water moves out to the edges, just speeding up the feed on the same structure to extend the "grain" of the pattern, or a completely different grind for the same snow conditions depending on the discipline.

Bright solid colored bases are straight up slower. I will die on this hill if I must. Solid color bases other than black do not finish as cleanly when grinding, don't absorb wax as well, and don't retain wax as well. I think it has to do with the dyes making the material softer and therefore less likely to cut cleanly when grinding, and more likely to fuzz up from skiing.

And even if you grind your skis exactly the same, use the same wax melted at the same temp with the same saturation, let it cool for the same amount of time, and scrape it the same, the brushing can make a huge difference in glide properties. For instance, finishing with a nylon brush will leave a very thin sheen of wax on the base, which is great for softer waxes in old/wet/transformed conditions, while finishing with a horsehair brush will pull more wax out of the structure and leave a "drier" finish for performance in new/dry/cold snow where reducing drag is paramount.

Basically, your skis all feel different because they are all different, even if you prep them the same. But yes, almost any base can be made relatively fast, some just take more work for certain conditions. Just wax your skis a bunch and they'll all be pretty damn quick. You don't even need fancy expensive wax, just do it a lot.

And purple bases are always slow.

ZX knows what he's talking about; everything matters and much of it you can't control (like what material the manufacturer decides to put on the ski), but you'll have decently fast skis if you wax and brush properly and often.

[Jacques Strap]

basses

Eh… I’m more of a bronze-back, black, and sandies kinda guy

[Pinned]

Big thanks to everyone, especially ZomblibulaX.

I'm thinking I might get a base grind on my slower Moments and then wax the hell out of them. There is a lot more to consider here than I thought - differences in the same roll of material for example.

[RShea]

There are 2 ways ski manufacturers can make ski bases: "Extruded - This is where the base material is melted and then cut into shape. ...
Sintered - This is where the base material is ground into a powder, heated, pressed and sliced into shape." Sintered is usually considered faster and what is used on most higher end skis and will accept wax better.

First if the skis are the same brand and model, then the difference could be the base grind, the preparation (scraping off the fine hairs after the grind with a metal scraper or rubbed down with scotchbrite or even a few other things), the amount of time a ski has been waxed, brushed and rewaxed, even the wax melting time and how long before they get scraped down and number of passes of the scraper or even the sharpness of scraper may influence a bit of the experience. Even factory things like the roll of base material used- maybe the day of the week, or the builders skill over another employee. World cup Racers have a large quiver of skis with serial numbers of course and it is known which ones are considered to be a faster pair and are kept for race days and the slower ones are delegated as training day skis usually.... Sometimes conditions or other factors like the pollen or dirt in the snow and or the base grind pattern can determine as well as the wax used of course. Even using base cleaner on a pair of skis can possibly change them- if they are dirty from use, it may help, but it maybe better to just also do a soft wax round to scrape and pull out the impurities and not cleaning them with a chemical cleaner that can absorb into the base also.

[scumpup]

Every 3 days? Ski days or days days... I don't know anyone who waxes every three days am I doing it all wrong?

[billyk]

Thought this was going to be a discussion of the difference between alkali and base. Best to avoid direct contact with strong caustic bases, although baking soda is OK.

[AlpiNord]

Every 3 days? Ski days or days days... I don't know anyone who waxes every three days am I doing it all wrong?

It depends on duration/mileage, how abrasive the snow is and how durable is the wax. Man made vs soft powder. Coral reef vs corn, etc. If you use Swix, you’ll need to wax more than with more durable waxes like Maplus or Toko. Use colder waxes for more durability, more universal glide and under warmer, softer waxes.

Waxing more than you think you need won’t hurt and it will certainly increase the glide the more you wax.

Bases are not really sponges but zillions of peaks and valleys with faceted faces you are trying to coat with wax. It takes multiple waxings to get them ‘saturated’ or wax adhered to them.

Regarding choosing the WOTD (wax of the day), pay attention to whether the wax chart is based on air or snow temps. Ski bases care what the snow surface temperature is around your mountain and not the air temperature. It’s where ’the rubber meets the road’. The snow temps will not change nearly as fast as the air temps, especially in the sun vs not. Here we can get over a 30 deg air temp plus intense sun change and snow temps move not much on the ‘back side’ while frozen to melting frontside. Swix and Purl (are about the same durability, BTW), for instance, use air temps. Maplus and Toko use snow temps. I have very good luck waxing down to at least the expected overnight low. You can overlay on top of the colder wax if things do change.

Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[gregL]

World cup Racers have a large quiver of skis with serial numbers of course and it is known which ones are considered to be a faster pair and are kept for race days and the slower ones are delegated as training day skis usually . .

This is also a known fact - same guy lays up 6 pairs of skis using the best materials available, same serviceman tunes and waxes them identically, and some are just faster than others. You don't have the luxury of testing multiple pairs of the same ski, so just make sure they have a decent structure and wax and brush them well and go ski.