Let's Talk About The Opioid Problem

[californiagrown]

Humans love opioids, haven’t we been sucking that poppy for thousands of years, nothing will stop it.

straight up. And if you only look at the short term effect, why wouldnt we love the stuff?

[bennymac]

someone said to me "10% of people who try cocaine don't like it and never want to do it again. 80% like it a lot and would do it again in the right situation. and 10% love it so much they'll go and sell their mom's couch and TV that day if they have to in order to get more"

they were just making the numbers up of course - but the point was how do you know what your response will be to something that has the potential to be highly addictive and destructive?

that discussion resonated with me.

likely there is a range of responses to prescription opiods - say you give 100 people opiod painkillers after they get a broken femur repaired - some are gonna say "ugh I don't like how this makes me feel", most are gonna appreciate having less pain until some significant healing has taken place, and a select few are really gonna miss not having them when the supply runs out - and you're not gonna hear about the majority in this situation who didn't get into a problem - which creates a bias - which leads to people saying "why are these medications ever being used?!!"

it's a nuanced conversation - and I don't have the answers. But it's not "opiods shouldn't be prescribed"

[skaredshtles]

I understand your point, but there are levels to addiction, and to the way a drug affects people. Being high on caffeine typically means you are a happy, alert, productive person, and the withdrawl is really the only bad part. Being high on opioids makes some people euphoric and awake, but most folks get lethargic and sleepy and zombified which is bad, AND the withdrawl is awful.


If opioids were free and lab tested, people would still be ODing, families ruined, and lives destroyed from addiction. Opioids are addictive enough that i think they do need to be highly regulated so that there arent as many chances to get sucked down that rabbithole. Way more folks (probably myself included honestly) would have an opioid addiction if it was as easy and cheap as buying alcohol or tobacco.

Yes - but the societal cost of prohibition outweighs the costs of managing it in a legal manner. By a lot. I think.

Fact.

Im a fan. I’m kind of surprised I never got addicted.

Me too. Shit's like magic.

[AK47bp]

It’s actually pretty crazy how our bodies are almost designed to accept and use opium.

https://n.neurology.org/content/92/1...ement/P4.9-055

I have been addicted, I love it, and anytime I can get my hands on some I’ll ingest it. It sucks to be this way.

I’m also stubborn as hell and refuse to let something take control of me, so out of sheer stubbornness I’ll stay away and not look for it. It’s a weird existence.

[Trackhead]

someone said to me "10% of people who try cocaine don't like it and never want to do it again. 80% like it a lot and would do it again in the right situation. and 10% love it so much they'll go and sell their mom's couch and TV that day if they have to in order to get more"

they were just making the numbers up of course - but the point was how do you know what your response will be to something that has the potential to be highly addictive and destructive?

that discussion resonated with me.

I am the 10% who'd sell their mom's couch. Had a brief interlude with coke a very very long time ago and had to tell myself, stop now or die. Dad was an alcohol, and I had a very strong desire to not walk a similar path. But holy shit, that stuff is instantly highly addictive.

[SumJongGuy]

someone said to me "10% of people who try cocaine

....ere given shitty blow? That's why they didn't like it?

I was a very unhappy camper about an hour after it's all gone, be it a half gram over an hour or a couple 8 balls over a weekend..


But, within about 6-12 hours I was always fine until the next bump..

Coke and pills weren't my drugs of choice but I did do a LOT of the former because it was always being put in front of me. trough the 80s and 90s.

[dunfree]

I am the 10% who'd sell their mom's couch. Had a brief interlude with coke a very very long time ago and had to tell myself, stop now or die. Dad was an alcohol, and I had a very strong desire to not walk a similar path. But holy shit, that stuff is instantly highly addictive.

coca leaves are far better than caffeine

[riser4]

I am the 10% who'd sell their mom's couch. Had a brief interlude with coke a very very long time ago and had to tell myself, stop now or die. Dad was an alcohol, and I had a very strong desire to not walk a similar path. But holy shit, that stuff is instantly highly addictive.

I read that as mom's cooch.

[riser4]

....ere given shitty blow? That's why the didn't like it?

I was a very unhappy camper about an hour after it's all gone, be it a half gram over an hour or a couple 8 balls over a weekend..


But, within about 6-12 hours I was always fine until the next bump..

Coke and pills weren't my drugs of choice but I did do a LOT of the former because it was always being put in front of me. trough the 80s and 90s.

Couple of 8 balls over a weekend? You mean per person, right? And what do you do for the rest of the weekend when you run out on Friday night? Sell mom's cooch?

[Trackhead]

I read that as mom's cooch.

Hahaha, I'm sure you did. This is TGR after all.

[BCMtnHound]

I read that as mom's cooch.

Hahaha, I'm sure you did. This is TGR after all.

That’s why we use the term chesterfield up here.

[bennymac]

....ere given shitty blow? That's why they didn't like it?

perhaps - or they just didn't like how it makes them feel.

Plenty of people out there can be given a small dose of the best of anything (THC, booze etc) and not like it - but then really enjoy a different drug.

[bennymac]

I read that as mom's cooch.

Once mom's TV and couch have been sold and you're on the backside of that high well....probably lots of brainstorming goes on about what else to sell.

[BCMtnHound]

perhaps - or they just didn't like how it makes them feel.

Plenty of people out there can be given a small dose of the best of anything (THC, booze etc) and not like it - but then really enjoy a different drug.

My experience with substances is very limited compared to many here; my only experience with blow was accidental when someone mixed it in a shared joint (ah, the days before COVID). It left me feeling ‘squirrelly’, which while not unpleasant isn’t really my thing, and then over abruptly leaving me feeling wanting. But I know/have known many who love that rush, and would seek it out every chance they got.

As in most recreational use, to each their own.

[SumJongGuy]

Couple of 8 balls over a weekend? You mean per person, right? And what do you do for the rest of the weekend when you run out on Friday night? Sell mom's cooch?

this

Only time I ever stole for blow was when we found a stash sticking out of someone's boot bag left under a table in the base lodge. It was a decent sized bag too, We were in 11th grade. First time I ever tried it.

Someone must have been really bummed when they finished their laps.. Probably stole Trackhead's mom's cooch. to get more.

Later in life we called it "want more"..

[Dantheman]

I understand your point, but there are levels to addiction, and to the way a drug affects people. Being high on caffeine typically means you are a happy, alert, productive person, and the withdrawl is really the only bad part. Being high on opioids makes some people euphoric and awake, but most folks get lethargic and sleepy and zombified which is bad, AND the withdrawl is awful.


If opioids were free and lab tested, people would still be ODing, families ruined, and lives destroyed from addiction. Opioids are addictive enough that i think they do need to be highly regulated so that there arent as many chances to get sucked down that rabbithole. Way more folks (probably myself included honestly) would have an opioid addiction if it was as easy and cheap as buying alcohol or tobacco.

There's two separate issues in play here.

I'm not arguing that we should stock Oxy next to cigs at 7-11. I do think there should be a legal avenue for educated and informed adults to purchase drugs for recreational use, including some opioids, because drugs are fun and enjoyable and the two riskiest things about them are an unregulated black market supply and the criminal justice system. But, that's a separate discussion. If Carl Hart ends up living in a tent I'll take it all back.

The people already addicted are an entirely different issue. Almost every one starts out functional, then they lose everything because their habit costs so much. But, that habit would cost pennies on the dollar if we would just accept that the best treatment we can offer a lot of people is cheap clean drugs so that they don't have to spend all of their money on drugs. You're a lot more likely to get someone clean if they don't end up homeless, but even if they never get clean but keep a roof over their head it's still a win. Opioid addiction is a manageable chronic medical condition, probably on par with diabetes or HIV treatment.

Yes, people will still OD, lives will still be destroyed. Obviously that happens with alcohol every day. But, it will happen far less. As I said early in the thread, fentanyl is not going away. The logistics and economics are just far too favorable for black market suppliers. If you haven't, look up some charts of the spike in ODs the last 5 years, it's staggering. If we don't offer people less potent safer alternatives the bodies will keep stacking up, fast.

[riser4]

That’s why we use the term chesterfield up here.

I'm too lazy to utter that many syllables in one word. You good with Settee?

[Core Shot]

You mean the 90’s?



https://youtu.be/0_HGqPGp9iY


Humans love opioids, haven’t we been sucking that poppy for thousands of years, nothing will stop it.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ion-180967673/

Had true opium for a few weeks in collage

That was fun. Glad it dried up.

Heroin and percs are too concentrated. And enginerd
Useful for bone pain. Useless for shitting.
No idea about fentanyl. Although I’m sure I had it for surgery.
You can’t legalize shit that incapacitates people.

[baron]

Pain is what makes life real... numbing it puts your brain in la la land

yea we need pain meds in some situations ... but if you need more than a joint and a few drinks recreationally then maybe therapy would help more than an 8 ball on a weekend. I been there and got out without getting hooked..it's tough to say no to hot blonde ladies with huge tits that want to use your house to party

working in a place that drug tests employees is an eye opener...people are way more chill to deal with/I was in construction for decades and the bad attitudes were over the top, lots of addicts and recovering addicts as well as the daily alcoholics.

[Trackhead]

I respectfully argue that recreational opioids are a bad idea. People don’t disintegrate their lives over just cost, they disintegrate due to becoming 100% obsessed and addicted and non-functional in society. Alcoholics are the same. Booze is cheap, and we see complete dysfunction in so many because of alcohol. Do we really want another socially acceptable avenue for people to destroy themselves? The thought of my kid, when he’s 21 or whatever, of buying legal opioids is so disturbing I can’t imagine it.

With opioids there are no safer “less potent” alternatives. That’s why alcoholics typically end up drinking a liter of cheap whiskey a day because it’s impractical/impossible to consume the equivalent alcohol in beer. Give someone less potent narc legally and eventually they’ll seek the big guns. Plays out every day in the ER. People demand dilaudid not morphine. They demand Percocet not Hydrocodone.

Some drugs, in my opinion, are best left illegal. I’m sure we can all agree they legalized the wrong drug (alcohol) 100 or whatever years ago.

[ghosthop]

If your kid wants to get high he’s going to, legal or not. The same is true of all addicts.

Prohibition pushes people to not be open about their struggles, forces them to pursue lower quality product (when is the last time someone went blind or died from bad alcohol purchased at a bar in the United States?), and criminalizes addicts when they seek help. We need a more supportive society, not a nanny state.

[XXX-er]

My experience with substances is very limited compared to many here; my only experience with blow was accidental when someone mixed it in a shared joint (ah, the days before COVID). It left me feeling ‘squirrelly’, which while not unpleasant isn’t really my thing, and then over abruptly leaving me feeling wanting. But I know/have known many who love that rush, and would seek it out every chance they got. .

yeah I never got high from any hospitol opiates they have ever given me for broken bones and the big bottle of Tramadol for the ACL just made me squirrely

I guess I'm not much of a drug addict

[Trackhead]

If your kid wants to get high he’s going to, legal or not. The same is true of all addicts.
.

Perhaps, but buying opioids from a dispensary is not something I’d like to see society make possible. After working ER for 26 years and seeing the suffering from so many addictions, it’s hard to see open use opioid as something that has any benefit for society.

I’m not a sociologist, but adding another drug to the legal opportunity that is highly physiologically and psychologically addictive seems like a very very bad idea.

[dunfree]

I respectfully argue that recreational opioids are a bad idea. People don’t disintegrate their lives over just cost, they disintegrate due to becoming 100% obsessed and addicted and non-functional in society. Alcoholics are the same. Booze is cheap, and we see complete dysfunction in so many because of alcohol. Do we really want another socially acceptable avenue for people to destroy themselves? The thought of my kid, when he’s 21 or whatever, of buying legal opioids is so disturbing I can’t imagine it.

With opioids there are no safer “less potent” alternatives. That’s why alcoholics typically end up drinking a liter of cheap whiskey a day because it’s impractical/impossible to consume the equivalent alcohol in beer. Give someone less potent narc legally and eventually they’ll seek the big guns. Plays out every day in the ER. People demand dilaudid not morphine. They demand Percocet not Hydrocodone.

Some drugs, in my opinion, are best left illegal. I’m sure we can all agree they legalized the wrong drug (alcohol) 100 or whatever years ago.

alcohol and alcoholism ain’t cheap and if you think it is, stfu.

1L of whisky a day is ~$3600, and there are plenty of beer only boozers

[riser4]

alcohol and alcoholism ain’t cheap and if you think it is, stfu.

1L of whisky a day is ~$3600, and there are plenty of beer only boozers

What is that converted to Trackhead's mom's cooch?