Let's Talk About The Opioid Problem

[Dantheman]

Obviously i am now talking about drugs with lower probability for true dependence, which is quite off topic from the OP.

Caffeine is a model drug of dependence. I'm not sure that modern western civilization would survive without it.

[dunfree]

I guess, IMO, it doesnt seem all that much different than how i treat coffee, or many people treat alcohol to optimize their feelings- coffee in the morning or when needing a boost, and alcohol for the celebratory buzz or numbing effects. These become long term habits that many/most see great benefit from, even if we become somewhat reliant. Obviously i am now talking about drugs with lower probability for true dependence, which is quite off topic from the OP.

alcohol is the drug they tell you opioids are

[Trackhead]

Caffeine is a model drug of dependence. I'm not sure that modern western civilization would survive without it.

Don’t bring coffee into this. I’m not prepared. Plus, coffee is good for Alzheimer’s or something.

As far as hedonist foods and opioid receptors…my fat ass loves chocolate chips in the evening, I crave them, but don’t suffer withdrawal in their absence (unlike coffee). I’m blaming those receptors.

[californiagrown]

Caffeine is a model drug of dependence. I'm not sure that modern western civilization would survive without it.

Heh touche. And lets not forget about our green-tea-guzzling neighbors in the east. (i actually have no idea how dependent the asian population is on tea/caffeine).

I should have said caffeine has a much lower probability for life destroying dependence.

[Core Shot]

Fat shaming is not comparable, and is borderline offensive to equate to opioid addiction (which is what you did by bringing it up out of the blue in this thread). There is a large movement celebrating being big and "Healthy at any size"... no one in their right mind would start a movement "Healthy with a heroin addiction" and be celebrated because sucking dick for heroin or pills and literally rotting away is a whole nother fucking level of bad than being unable to button your pants because you can't not eat a whole tray of oreos.


Show me the obese people sucking dick, living on the street, committing crime and losing everything because of a dependence on inhaling excess calories. Ill wait.

Fuck fattys

If we made hfc illegal they would suck dick for a coke.

Fat bastards and fat bitches need to stop eating.
They’re like junkies. Only slower. And fatter.

[zion zig zag]

Don’t bring coffee into this. I’m not prepared. Plus, coffee is good for Alzheimer’s or something.

As far as hedonist foods and opioid receptors…my fat ass loves chocolate chips in the evening, I crave them, but don’t suffer withdrawal in their absence (unlike coffee). I’m blaming those receptors.

I have a large spoonful of Nutella pretty much every night. I’m not prepared to find out if I’ll suffer withdrawals when I quit.

As far as Adderall, I had access to some at one point years ago and found out that I really liked it. There’s nothing quite like popping one and then studying for 5 hours straight, or having one 12 hours into an alpine climb that you know is going to go for much longer. I flushed them and went back to shot blocks and coffee. I have dependency anxiety.

[Jacques Strap]

Coffee is the best drug. It’s correlated with reduced risk of CV and neurodegenerative disease, it’s a performance enhancing drug, and a nootropic. Coffee addicts live longer, enjoy it more, and are better at it.

OD is functionally impossible (yes, you can reach toxic levels of caffeine with pills or powder, but the therapeutic index is fucking huge and you’re not going to exceed it with coffee) and it’s got a low risk of dependence (a headache? Get the fuck out, it ain’t the DTs or the shakes or anything).

And it turns out more is better
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27612937/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-2017092512429
https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/F...on_for.38.aspx
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24201300/

[Meadow Skipper]

I only critisize people for being left-handed

I criticize people for smoking. Smoking is very addictive. Should I stop?

[SumJongGuy]

I criticize people for smoking. Smoking is very addictive. Should I stop?

That's actually a little different. Like guns
It puts other people at risk around them... Not just 2nd hand smoke. How many fires have you had to work because someone was smoking?

Still, better to promote a healthier environment, we've banned smoking most places.

[Trackhead]

As far as Adderall, I had access to some at one point years ago and found out that I really liked it. There’s nothing quite like popping one and then studying for 5 hours straight, or having one 12 hours into an alpine climb that you know is going to go for much longer. I flushed them and went back to shot blocks and coffee. I have dependency anxiety.

Best drug combo for 24+ hour non-stop pushes the mountains:
1. Ambien + ibuprofen for the parking lot sleep before the climb
2. Climb all day, pop a Provigil to get through the night
3. Get stuck out for forced bivi, more Ambien + Ibuprofen

[Dantheman]

I should have said caffeine has a much lower probability for life destroying dependence.

I don't mean to minimize the seriousness of opioid addiction, but the life-destroying aspect is highly tied to the illegality. If people could get help while they are still functional many of them would be able to manage their addiction more like diabetes and be at far lower risk of completely destroying their lives.

Coffee is the best drug. It’s correlated with reduced risk of CV and neurodegenerative disease, it’s a performance enhancing drug, and a nootropic. Coffee addicts live longer, enjoy it more, and are better at it.

OD is functionally impossible (yes, you can reach toxic levels of caffeine with pills or powder, but the therapeutic index is fucking huge and you’re not going to exceed it with coffee) and it’s got a low risk of dependence (a headache? Get the fuck out, it ain’t the DTs or the shakes or anything).

And it turns out more is better
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27612937/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-2017092512429
https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/F...on_for.38.aspx
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24201300/

This is all true, though caffeine withdrawal can be fairly rough for heavy users. Caffeine in the afternoon and evening wrecks sleep, fact. Morning only.

[MontuckyFried]

Best drug combo for 24+ hour non-stop pushes the mountains:
1. Ambien + ibuprofen for the parking lot sleep before the climb
2. Climb all day, pop a Provigil to get through the night
3. Get stuck out for forced bivi, more Ambien + Ibuprofen

Man. That almost seems like cheating. Can't hang without the assist?

[Meadow Skipper]

Man. That almost seems like cheating. Can't hang without the assist?

Pay attention. We aren’t to criticize people that have problems like that.

[Trackhead]

Man. That almost seems like cheating. Can't hang without the assist?

I’ve never personally taken provigil, in or out of the mountains. But ambien before a 1:00am start to a 24+ hour day sure helps get at least a little sleep instead of tossing and turning with anxiety about the big day . Also nice on a shitty bivi. I’m so old now I don’t do that shit anymore. I just stick to coffee.

[Jacques Strap]

caffeine withdrawal can be fairly rough for heavy users

Caffeine is totally legal, widely available, and dirt cheap. Ain’t no need to withdraw, baby.

Caffeine in the afternoon and evening wrecks sleep, fact. Morning only.

Ok Mr. Smarty-Pants, but if I stop before noon, how am I gunna drink these 10 cups?

[Mazderati]

Quick interlude to recognize Jacques's handle. It's a good one.

[riser4]

And here in VT that would be pronounced Jake's Strap. Fact.

[Dantheman]

Caffeine is totally legal, widely available, and dirt cheap. Ain’t no need to withdraw, baby.

I feel like there's a lesson here, what could it possibly be....

[skaredshtles]

I feel like there's a lesson here, what could it possibly be....

That coffee is bad and should be banned??

[AK47bp]

That coffee is bad and should be banned??

The Devil’s Bean

[californiagrown]

I feel like there's a lesson here, what could it possibly be....

I understand your point, but there are levels to addiction, and to the way a drug affects people. Being high on caffeine typically means you are a happy, alert, productive person, and the withdrawl is really the only bad part. Being high on opioids makes some people euphoric and awake, but most folks get lethargic and sleepy and zombified which is bad, AND the withdrawl is awful.


If opioids were free and lab tested, people would still be ODing, families ruined, and lives destroyed from addiction. Opioids are addictive enough that i think they do need to be highly regulated so that there arent as many chances to get sucked down that rabbithole. Way more folks (probably myself included honestly) would have an opioid addiction if it was as easy and cheap as buying alcohol or tobacco.

[dunfree]

I understand your point, but there are levels to addiction, and to the way a drug affects people.


If opioids were free and lab tested, people would still be ODing, families ruined, and lives destroyed from addiction. Opioids are addictive enough that i think they do need to be highly regulated so that there arent as many chances to get sucked down that rabbithole. Way more folks (probably myself included honestly) would have an opioid addiction if it was as easy and cheap as buying alcohol or tobacco.

look to the late 19th century and you can find legal industrial produced opioids and see the moralizing was exactly the same as alcohol and tobacco

[Meadow Skipper]

Being high on caffeine typically means you are a happy, alert, productive person,

Lol. Until you aren’t.

[AK47bp]

look to the late 19th century and you can find legal industrial produced opioids and see the moralizing was exactly the same as alcohol and tobacco

You mean the 90’s?



https://youtu.be/0_HGqPGp9iY


Humans love opioids, haven’t we been sucking that poppy for thousands of years, nothing will stop it.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ion-180967673/

[Meadow Skipper]

Humans love opioids, haven’t we been sucking that poppy for thousands of years, nothing will stop it.

Fact.

Im a fan. I’m kind of surprised I never got addicted.