OFFICIAL 2023 MLB THREAD!!!!

[Woodsy]

It would seem Tim Hyers is a hell of a hitting coach...

[BmillsSkier]

So... who is the Rangers fan tasked with starting the '24 thread? Or do we wait until the postseason awards are over?

[Woodsy]

From Evan Drellich

Major League Baseball’s antitrust exemption is facing arguably its most worthy legal challenge in decades. But despite the relative strength of a case that could play out in the Supreme Court in a matter of months, the lawsuit could also soon fall by the wayside if the league opens its wallet wide enough.





Although virtually any case appealed to the nation’s highest court is a long shot, experts say a lawsuit prompted by MLB’s expulsion of 40 teams from its affiliated minor-league system has better odds at grabbing the court’s attention — at least in comparison to prior attacks on baseball’s infamous exemption.

“It’s the strongest challenge since there were several cases in the ’90s,” said Stephen Ross,

That strength is said to be owed partly to the case itself, as well as to the judges who would hear it. The Supreme Court’s unanimous decision two years ago in an antitrust case that paved the way for NCAA athletes to make money from their name and likeness “changed everything,” said Brad Snyder, a Georgetown law professor.

Since 1922, MLB and its teams have enjoyed protection from antitrust scrutiny that most businesses do not, a product of an anomalous Supreme Court decision that year. Although the exemption’s scope has been modified over time, it still allows MLB to engage in monopolistic practices which in other industries might be deemed illegal.

The plaintiffs in the case at hand are two of the teams MLB pushed out: the Norwich Sea Unicorns of Connecticut, and the Tri-City ValleyCats, based near Albany, N.Y. They argue that in a setting where typical antitrust laws apply, the 30 major-league teams would need to compete with one another over the number of minor-league teams they partner with. That stands in contrast to what happened ahead of the 2021 season, when MLB clubs collectively trimmed the number of affiliated farm teams across their ranks to 120, down from 160.

“A lot of people ask me, ‘Well, who cares if baseball has an antitrust exemption?’” said Snyder who, like Ross, recently signed on to one of several briefs urging the Supreme Court to take the case. “These are small businesses and they’re getting abused. … The contraction of minor-league affiliates without any sort of free-market competition, allowing these teams to compete on price — they simply get cut out of the affiliated minor leagues — really illustrates the evils of a monopoly.”



But the case might disappear before the Supreme Court chooses whether to hear it.

The two minor-league teams have a different but related lawsuit against MLB in New York state court that is coming to a head. Settlement talks in front of a judge are set for Tuesday, only two weeks before a trial is to begin on Nov. 13.

As part of those negotiations, MLB could tell the minor-league owners that both cases must be settled at the same time.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what they do,” said Jim Quinn, an attorney for the minor-league teams. “But in order for that to happen, they would have to pay a lot of money.”

Quinn said the concurrent lawsuits were designed to create as much pressure on MLB as possible, a leverage play. MLB declined comment.

All together, Norwich and Tri-City’s ownership seem to be on the precipice of a major decision in coming weeks: take a settlement, or let the Supreme Court case play out and risk guaranteed money in pursuit of legal history, baseball history, and maybe even a greater good.

The sound of settling
Doug Gladstone, owner of the Tri-City club, is aware he has become a participant in a fight that extends far beyond his own business.

“When we started, this was about our team, because we felt wronged,” Gladstone said. “It obviously has gotten bigger with the antitrust issue. I feel like it does have some bearing on decision-making for us for sure, the larger picture.

“There are a lot of people rooting for this. I think there are a lot of people on the sidelines that are wishing that this could be changed.”

But the plaintiffs are not promising they’ll take the antitrust case as far as it can go.

“We’re always open to settlement,” Quinn said.

E. Miles Prentice III, who owns Norwich, did not respond to an interview request.

Many have tried and failed to bring down baseball’s famous protection, which is widely panned among legal scholars. That makes the potential of settling an above-average baseball antitrust claim a letdown for the exemption’s opponents such as Snyder, who acknowledged he would find it a disappointing outcome.


Among a batch of friend-of-the-court briefs that were filed to the Supreme Court in the last week, perhaps the most impactful came from 18 attorneys general across the country. In imploring the court to take the case, they argued that when MLB cut 40 teams, the states themselves had no recourse.

“States are preempted from exercising their historic police powers and enforcing their own antitrust laws by a century-old, judge-made federal exemption …” the brief reads.

Ironically, the greater-good arguments relayed in the friend-of-the-court briefs might wind up primarily benefiting only the two plaintiffs.

Quinn, 78, is a prominent name inside sports circles for his work helping NBA and NFL players secure free agency. Even with his resume, the baseball exemption represents something of a white whale.

“I think I already have a legacy,” Quinn said. “But I did say to somebody recently: I’d love to be able to put on my tombstone, ‘We got the baseball exemption overturned.’ … This would certainly be a nice way to end it all.”

Yet Quinn and his clients ultimately have no obligation to hold off on a settlement for any perceived wider benefit.

“Clients, not Jim Quinn — clients — can choose to forego their short-term economic interest to serve some broader purpose,” Ross said. “If these people want to take a bunch of money to go away, that is entirely their right and their prerogative.”

Never tell me the odds
Experts see a few differences between this volley at the baseball exemption and past attempts, including the current court’s willingness to overturn precedent. The Supreme Court has previously said Congress should make any subsequent changes to the exemption. But today’s justices might feel differently.

This court’s ruling on college athletics in “NCAA v. Alston” also suggests to lawyers like Snyder that the baseball exemption could be in the court’s sights. Over time, some sitting justices have publicly criticized the baseball exemption in various commentaries, as well.


But if the current baseball case does get settled — or the Supreme Court declines to take it up — those who hope to see the exemption overturned worry it will be some time before the arrival of another worthy opportunity.

“Unless the government is willing to actually get involved, the only time you can get a case is if some rich private party is also affected by the monopoly power,” Ross said. “The problem with the rich private party being involved is they are not your most attractive party to present the case.”

Snyder used to tell his law students that minor-league players were prime candidates for antitrust litigation. That changed last year when minor-leaguers unionized, meaning that they’d be subject to labor law rather than antitrust law. (Major leaguers, meanwhile, are not candidates for two reasons: they too have a union, and Congress in 1998 modified the exemption so that it could never apply to their ranks.)

Lawyer Garrett Broshuis doesn’t see a clear successor to the current case. He has successfully taken on MLB in court, reaching a $185 million settlement for minor leaguers in a wage-violation suit last year. But he also knows the peril of antitrust litigation with the league: he once brought a suit challenging the exemption on behalf of scouts, which the Supreme Court declined to hear.

“When is there going to be another opportunity like this that lines up?” Broshuis asked. “You’ve had franchise-relocation cases that haven’t gone anywhere. I had my scout case from a few years back. That was a decent candidate, but it didn’t have as broad of support as a case like this does.

“You can get business interests behind a case like this. You can get Republicans behind this, where it’s bipartisan as well. What other type of effort is going to get this type of broad support? It’s tough to envision another opportunity like this. So if it doesn’t happen now, when will it happen?”
Hi

But even when tough cases do come up, MLB has relied on its deep pockets to scuttle them.

The current antitrust lawsuit originally counted four teams as plaintiffs. Half of them, the Staten Island Yankees of New York and the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes of Oregon, have already reached settlements with the league.

Snyder pointed to an earlier example. In the 1940s, New York Giants outfielder Danny Gardella briefly joined a team in Mexico, where players were being lured with big salaries. When Gardella was suspended, he sued the league before settling the case for $60,000.

“I felt like I was get­ting paid off, but being a poor man I felt more or less justified,” Gardella said, per the Society for American Baseball Research. “It wasn’t like I had a lot of money and was being paid off.”

The commissioner at the time, Happy Chandler, admitted after the fact that “the lawyers thought we could not win.”

“The reason why we’re in this crazy situation where Major League Baseball has a legal monopoly is because MLB was smart enough to settle with Danny Gardella after he was blacklisted from the Mexican League,” Snyder said. “If you’re invested in a minor-league team, and Major League Baseball comes to you and says, ‘Hey, we’ll settle with you for X amount of money’ … that’s what a monopolist does, is try to perpetuate its monopoly.”

[BmillsSkier]

Big Monday for the Guardos:

Steven Kwan wins his second Gold Glove, one for each year he's been a Major Leaguer;

Andres Gimenez wins his second Gold Glove; and

Steven Vogt is named the 47th manager in franchise history. Seems like a good fit. Lots of clubhouse humor and chops, was a big league catcher, uses analytics and is young enough to relate to the players on the field. Interviewed for the open SF job as well. Fingers crossed we found our next Tito.

[ex-powderbroker]

https://twitter.com/librarianjoe_/st...64/mediaviewer

i don’t find Volpe to be super impressive but the numbers were pretty kind to him.

when do we here about betts and acuna?

i was catching shit about betts being able to play infield but after watching some acuna reels i have full confidence he’s gonna win some silver sluggers at dh soon.

[alias_rice]

Steven Vogt is named the 47th manager in franchise history. Seems like a good fit. Lots of clubhouse humor and chops, was a big league catcher, uses analytics and is young enough to relate to the players on the field. Interviewed for the open SF job as well. Fingers crossed we found our next Tito.

Kind of wild that they’ll go from one of the most experienced managers in the league to a guy that retired from playing a year ago. Baseball is probably the only sport where that can work out though.

[skiJ]

Big Monday for the Guardos:

Steven Kwan wins his second Gold Glove, one for each year he's been a Major Leaguer;

Andres Gimenez wins his second Gold Glove; and

Steven Vogt is named the 47th manager in franchise history. Seems like a good fit. Lots of clubhouse humor and chops, was a big league catcher, uses analytics and is young enough to relate to the players on the field. Interviewed for the open SF job as well. Fingers crossed we found our next Tito.

respectfully, dude, you don't replace Terry Francona -
Just hope they chose a man who can be a competent manager.

History will be generous to Terry Francona
( mostly for his time in Boston )


rock on... skiJ

[BmillsSkier]

respectfully, dude, you don't replace Terry Francona -
Just hope they chose a man who can be a competent manager.

History will be generous to Terry Francona
( mostly for his time in Boston )


rock on... skiJ

No question whatsoever you don't replace Tito. The man won more games in small market, cheap ownership, Cleveland over an 11 year stretch than any other team not named the Dodgers, Yankees or Astros. He has more postseason appearances in CLE than he did in BOS, and 3 AL Manager of the Year Awards, all in CLE. His 2 titles for BOS are top of the mountain, no doubt, but I'd argue that his legacy was felt longer, and more impactfully, in Cleveland. You can't replace that no matter who you go out and get.

[teleee]

Ross out and Counsell in with the Cubs - file that under things I didn’t see coming.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Falcon3]

Ross out and Counsell in with the Cubs - file that under things I didn’t see coming.

Woah, that's crazy news. Counsell basically bleeds Brewers blue and yellow. Brew crew player, front office guy, then manager. Wow. Rumors are he'll be the highest-paid manager in baseball. I did like Rossie, but he always seemed like a rebound to keep the seat warm while rebuilding. Counsell definitely knows how to manage. He did great things with small-market Milwaukee, so hopefully with more money on his roster, he can do some great things. I'm beyond stoked the Cubs exercised Hendricks' and Gomes' options, I love those guys.

[skiJ]

No question whatsoever you don't replace Tito. The man won more games in small market, cheap ownership, Cleveland over an 11 year stretch than any other team not named the Dodgers, Yankees or Astros. He has more postseason appearances in CLE than he did in BOS, and 3 AL Manager of the Year Awards, all in CLE. His 2 titles for BOS are top of the mountain, no doubt, but I'd argue that his legacy was felt longer, and more impactfully, in Cleveland. You can't replace that no matter who you go out and get.

no doubt, Francona had a fine run in Cleveland, but leading the RedSox to breaking the ' curse of the Bambino' ( eighty-four years ) and then winning a second Championship three years later - That's the Magic ( especially 2004 ) ;

no argument he did an excellent job in Cleveland - but it is the Championships - and especially that magical run in 2004 - that will be remembered, still, in another 25years.

You are correct about Francona's excellence in Cleveland ;

I just don't agree with the expectation that the next manager be 'the next Tito. '

Terry Francona is an exceptional manager and a unique man - no argument here.

skiJ

[Brock Landers]

I'd argue that his legacy was felt longer, and more impactfully, in Cleveland.

Huh?

[BmillsSkier]

Huh?

Look, 2 WS rings is top of the mountain; I’ve said as much. I just think an argument can be made that while he didn’t crest that mountain in Cleveland ( got them within one out of doing so in 2016) that his impact there was greater.

He spent 11 years in Cleveland to his 8 in Boston.

He earned 3 AL managers of the year awards in Cleveland to 0 in Boston.

He had more playoff appearances in Cleveland, 6, to his 5 in Boston.

He was given an open-ended contract in Cleveland and one of the highest manager salaries in baseball; Boston fired him after winning them 2 titles.

He did all of this in a market that isn’t even half that of Boston and with a payroll that was a fraction of Boston’s, and yet during that 11 year stretch won more games than Boston and everyone else not named the Yankees, Astros and Dodgers - teams with payrolls equal to small countries’.

He consistently got more out of his teams with way less. That’s the difference he (and his staff) made. It’s those reasons why I think an argument can be made that he meant more to Cleveland and certainly had a bigger impact there looking at his results in relation to what he was given to work with.

In the end though rings are all that may matter but I’ll still smile when he gets his statue on the corner of Carnegie and Ontario.

[Brock Landers]

He brought a franchise which had seen excruciatingly close calls with titles over 9 decades, sold the best player in the history of the game to start that period (to their arch rivals in one of the most religious rivalries in sports), in your own words double the market, double the heartache, movies made (nothing as good as Major League) and books written. Part of the fabric of American sports was the Red Sox losing in difficult ways and not reaching that peak.

He did it. Twice.

Honestly Tito in Cleveland was as rare as Art Howe in Oakland, Ron Gardenhire in Minnesota, Kevin Cash in Tampa. Small markets, good teams, no titles, no history, no curses.

Did Mike Hargrove get a statue?

[BmillsSkier]

He brought a franchise which had seen excruciatingly close calls with titles over 9 decades, sold the best player in the history of the game to start that period (to their arch rivals in one of the most religious rivalries in sports), in your own words double the market, double the heartache, movies made (nothing as good as Major League) and books written. Part of the fabric of American sports was the Red Sox losing in difficult ways and not reaching that peak.

He did it. Twice.

Honestly Tito in Cleveland was as rare as Art Howe in Oakland, Ron Gardenhire in Minnesota, Kevin Cash in Tampa. Small markets, good teams, no titles, no history, no curses.

Did Mike Hargrove get a statue?

Don’t disagree with anything you said in your first paragraph.

Disagree with the as common as _______ paragraph. The fact that we can even have this discussion about the man makes him more noteworthy than any of those other managers (FTR, I really wanted Cash in Cleveland after Tito). No history for a founding member of the American League? Shake yourself.

Good news is the Guards hold the longest streak without a WS title so when Vogt does it he’ll start his climb up that mountain that Tito helped blaze a trail.

And no, Hargrove, while in the Tribe HoF, does not have a statue. Tito will have one though as the winningest manager in club history (est 1901). It will look good next to José’s

[Brock Landers]

Fair, I need to put a little more respect on their name than simply lumping them in with the twins, rays, a’s.

Tito is/was the best and Larry Lucchino can fuck himself for riding him out of town with the typical whispers and backroom accusations. Fuck you Larry Lucchino, whatever your handle is.

[ötzi]

Lucchino skis?

[Supermoon]

Lucchino skis?

He has big Stockli/Bogner vibes

[Brock Landers]

Lucchino skis?

He’s a dentist

[BmillsSkier]

He has big Stockli/Bogner vibes

These days its all Moncler

[Supermoon]

These days its all Moncler

See how long it’s been since I’ve been to Deer Valley? I’m out of the loop

[BmillsSkier]

See how long it’s been since I’ve been to Deer Valley? I’m out of the loop

Gweneth skis in Moncler puffers while gooping jade eggs hands free.

[BmillsSkier]

Ron Washington named new Angels manager.

I hope they don't waste all his talents too.

[Bunion 2020]

Ron Washington named new Angels manager.

I hope they don't waste all his talents too.

Eric Young jr goes with him along with Goins.

Some rumors that Chipper Jones may coach F/T for the Braves, until Eric left I thought it was BS.

[Supermoon]

Ron Washington named new Angels manager.

I hope they don't waste all his talents too.

Typo of the year.