Do I want a plug boot?

[toast2266]

A couple of weeks off snow now due to work and messing with boots...obviously finding ways to spend money I probably don't need to spend with a project I probably don't need to put time into but...curious.

I didn't grow up skiing, wasn't a racer, but have enjoyed working on improving over the last few seasons. I do not have a good local bootfitter so I've tackled all of this on my own so far. I have no real sense of how good a boot could be but I've been steadily making improvements to my boots and I definitely notice the better the bootfit has gotten the more confidently I ski. I've been in 120/130 flex boots which I've never had any trouble actually flexing, but I don't think I need a 140/150 or anything like that. I'm 5'11", 180lbs, athletic build. Big calves, moderate instep, normal width feet.

Current shells are a Rossignol SI 130 and a Lange RX120 LV both in 26.5 with a ~1cm shell fit. I don't think I could get into a 25.5. I have Zipfit liners that I transfer between the shells. The Rossi shells are getting old but fit very well. The Langes seem a little bit roomier in the forefoot and ankle - no boot work at all and I'm wishing the forefoot was a little bit more snug along with a little more ankle hold when driving bigger skis. No numbness in either boot. I need to add some cork to the Zipfits around the ankle / in front of the ankle and see how the Langes feel.

But, I'm very curious about trying out a 95mm or 96mm plug boot. If the 97mm Langes are OK without bootwork what are my chances of getting into a 96 or 95 last boot without needing serious modifications? The 97mm lasted Lange is about as tight as I'd want over the instep (a Tecnica Mach 1 LV is too low on the instep after a while, for example) - which is my biggest concern before I start on this project.

Is the juice worth the squeeze here? Assuming I'll need to get fitted while traveling and this will end up being a big time suck...is the end result worthwhile versus the Langes which are pretty good? And lastly, if yes, which boots should I be looking at / trying on?

This all sounds pretty similar to me. I was in a salomon x-max 130 and pretty happy, but wanted to see what a plug offered. I got some tecnica firebird 120's (not a true plug, I know).

It took some doing to get them to work with my foot - they're definitely narrow. Biggest issue was the toe box for me. Getting it so I could spend more than a couple laps in them required a fair amount of grinding and punching. For reference, I've never needed to grind or punch any 98mm last boot I've been in.

Skiing them was great, sort of. They have a smoother flex than any other boot I've been in, and they're very damp. Even though they're not super stiff, I could put power into the ski better than any other boot I've skied.

Ultimately though, I couldn't deal with the forward lean. The geometry of the boot worked great for me on groomers, but I needed a more upright stance in pow (which is the situation I care more about). In pow, my quads would just be absolutely torched after a lap or two. I think we could've done some work to make the boot more upright, but that would've pushed my foot forward a bit, and I definitely didn't have room to go forward. So I gave up on them and went back to salomons.

My firebirds are for sale if you want to give them a shot.

[Pinned]

This thread has been super helpful - the personal experiences going from normal performance boots to plug / race boots in particular. Thanks to everyone for that.

Ultimately though, I couldn't deal with the forward lean. The geometry of the boot worked great for me on groomers, but I needed a more upright stance in pow (which is the situation I care more about). In pow, my quads would just be absolutely torched after a lap or two. I think we could've done some work to make the boot more upright, but that would've pushed my foot forward a bit, and I definitely didn't have room to go forward. So I gave up on them and went back to salomons.

That's interesting. My current boots are both 12* forward lean as far as I know, and the ramp angles feel similar (at least I don't notice that explicitly if there is a difference). The Redster CS has 16-18* of forward lean and the Head WCR 140S looks to be 16* as well (or 9* according to Head's new measurement methodology).

Like you, I am mostly interested in soft snow performance. The times I most wish for that extra 10% precision in my bootfit are in deep, heavy snow or cut up, heavy snow while driving big skis. That's when I notice any free movement the most. My most commonly used skis are both -6cm mounts too. Though I do have a couple that are more traditional at around -12cm.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Go see a boot fitter and then ski a lot more


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[Pinned]

Go see a boot fitter and then ski a lot more

I'm far from the most knowledgable or the best skier - both of these points are good advice, though I've gotten as far as I think I can with the boot fitters easily accessible to me and the shells I've got. I've been to bootfitters that are near me, and the advice / recommendations have either been dismissive or just downright bad. Ended up in a Mach 1 shell that really never worked for me. Sold them for 1/4 of what I paid after 15 days in them. Not opposed to a bootfit, but it's not as simple as a quick drive across town or something.

I don't think there is a closer fit to be had in these shells outside of the additional cork added to the liners (which does feel like a positive change). So that's what I'm looking to learn - is it worth it to go to what is effectively some sort of racing shell for a non-racer. It sounds like yes, with a lot of caveats that may make it a project for next season.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I hope you like cold painful feet


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[jackattack]

So that's what I'm looking to learn - is it worth it to go to what is effectively some sort of racing shell for a non-racer. It sounds like yes, with a lot of caveats that may make it a project for next season.

Not for freeride.

Just size down and punch for length. Get some used 130 flex freeride boots like a Lange rx130lv.

[altacoup]

Never been a racer. Bought some 93 last Dobermans years ago because they were cheap and I’ve never looked back. I do have a very narrow ankle and forefoot. 2 small punches in each boot. The only downside is that I hate every touring boot I’ve been in since getting accustomed to performance of a true race boot. True narrow race boots are also easy to find super cheap. I’ve got 4 pairs of Dobermans in the closet and spent less than $700 combined. I do run hotronics and taking the boot off can be a real bitch. To solve my touring problems I sent some Dobermans to the boys at CAST. Still have some lighter boots for longer stuff.

[D(C)]

The only downside is that I hate every touring boot I’ve been in since getting accustomed to performance of a true race boot.

Yeah, that’s a real issue.

[toast2266]

This thread has been super helpful - the personal experiences going from normal performance boots to plug / race boots in particular. Thanks to everyone for that.


That's interesting. My current boots are both 12* forward lean as far as I know, and the ramp angles feel similar (at least I don't notice that explicitly if there is a difference). The Redster CS has 16-18* of forward lean and the Head WCR 140S looks to be 16* as well (or 9* according to Head's new measurement methodology).

Like you, I am mostly interested in soft snow performance. The times I most wish for that extra 10% precision in my bootfit are in deep, heavy snow or cut up, heavy snow while driving big skis. That's when I notice any free movement the most. My most commonly used skis are both -6cm mounts too. Though I do have a couple that are more traditional at around -12cm.

Yeah, my firebirds worked reasonably well with a more traditional mounted ski. But when I skied those boots with something like the black ops 118's (-5 mount), I really struggled.

I'm sure that'll vary from person to person, and obviously some people make it work. But I couldn't, and I'm ultimately happier back in my 98 last salomons.

[nyskirat]

So that's what I'm looking to learn - is it worth it to go to what is effectively some sort of racing shell for a non-racer. It sounds like yes, with a lot of caveats that may make it a project for next season.

I'd say yes for consumer race boot (Atomic CS 130, Head Raptor WCR 140, etc.) but no for a pure plug unless you have an extremely low-volume foot OR are willing to put up with the fitting travel as well as the cold feet.

I've seen Onenerdykid say in another thread on a forum that a bunch of freeride athletes use the CS 130 for their main boot.

[kokomas]

Could use some advice on related stuff, favorite boot was the Nordica GP, the ones that looked like mountain dew. Was that a race boot as you guys call them? Next boot was Nordica Hot Rods in clear red shells which were way too soft when warm though with intuitions they have worked for a couple hundred days now. Both boots heated in sixth toe, navicular, outer heel. I'm tall, not overly heavy, and an aggressive but not particularly smooth skier. Also very behind the times in boot knowledge.

The freeride boots im looking at are the Promachine 130s and the RX 130 LVs. The flex feels stiff enough but weird in the Nordicas probably due to the crappy new plastic used. And the flex feels nice and progressive in the Langes but too soft. The Salomon XMax better somehow in this regard?

So it seems I'm now looking in the Doberman 130 realm with 98 last. Hoping that gives the nice old school stiff but even flex. This reasonable for a 100 day Jackson daily driver? I know they have all been mentioned here already but I'm not up on the lingo, what are the peers of this boot to also consider? I've talked to three bootfitters in Jackson now and no one will bring up these quasi race boots.

Thanks


Edit: noting the Atomic CS 130, Head Raptor WCR 140 mentioned above

[onenerdykid]

Could use some advice on related stuff, favorite boot was the Nordica GP, the ones that looked like mountain dew. Was that a race boot as you guys call them? Next boot was Nordica Hot Rods in clear red shells which were way too soft when warm though with intuitions they have worked for a couple hundred days now. Both boots heated in sixth toe, navicular, outer heel. I'm tall, not overly heavy, and an aggressive but not particularly smooth skier. Also very behind the times in boot knowledge.

The freeride boots im looking at are the Promachine 130s and the RX 130 LVs. The flex feels stiff enough but weird in the Nordicas probably due to the crappy new plastic used. And the flex feels nice and progressive in the Langes but too soft. The Salomon XMax better somehow in this regard?

So it seems I'm now looking in the Doberman 130 realm with 98 last. Hoping that gives the nice old school stiff but even flex. This reasonable for a 100 day Jackson daily driver? I know they have all been mentioned here already but I'm not up on the lingo, what are the peers of this boot to also consider? I've talked to three bootfitters in Jackson now and no one will bring up these quasi race boots.

Thanks


Edit: noting the Atomic CS 130, Head Raptor WCR 140 mentioned above

Most high-end ski shops don't bring in many race or race-oriented boots these days. Search out a shop that focuses or leans more into the race world. Not only will they have the boot selection you're looking for (which is the correct direction you should be heading in) but they also have the tools, knowledge, and accessories you'll need to turn a race boot into more of an "all mountain" boot - like shock absorbing boot boards and grippier lifters for grip/traction/replaceability.

[kootenayskier]

My wife has lots of extra space (no punches, regularly packing out liners) in her 95mm Dobermann Aggressor 130s. She would benefit from dropping down to a narrower last, but would then likely require some customization, would need them softened, and would benefit from replacing the boot board and adding grippy lifters. Issue is nobody in our vicinity (Rossland BC) has the stock or skills to handle this, and travelling for boot fitting seems impractical?

[altacoup]

Could use some advice on related stuff, favorite boot was the Nordica GP, the ones that looked like mountain dew. Was that a race boot as you guys call them? Next boot was Nordica Hot Rods in clear red shells which were way too soft when warm though with intuitions they have worked for a couple hundred days now. Both boots heated in sixth toe, navicular, outer heel. I'm tall, not overly heavy, and an aggressive but not particularly smooth skier. Also very behind the times in boot knowledge.

The freeride boots im looking at are the Promachine 130s and the RX 130 LVs. The flex feels stiff enough but weird in the Nordicas probably due to the crappy new plastic used. And the flex feels nice and progressive in the Langes but too soft. The Salomon XMax better somehow in this regard?

So it seems I'm now looking in the Doberman 130 realm with 98 last. Hoping that gives the nice old school stiff but even flex. This reasonable for a 100 day Jackson daily driver? I know they have all been mentioned here already but I'm not up on the lingo, what are the peers of this boot to also consider? I've talked to three bootfitters in Jackson now and no one will bring up these quasi race boots.

Thanks


Edit: noting the Atomic CS 130, Head Raptor WCR 140 mentioned above

If you’re a 26.5. I have some 97 last Dobermans with maybe 5 days on them that I’d sell super cheap. They even have the better pro machine cork liner in them. The rec race Doberman comes with a crap liner where as the full World Cup boot has great liner.

[mr_pretzel]

My wife has lots of extra space (no punches, regularly packing out liners) in her 95mm Dobermann Aggressor 130s. She would benefit from dropping down to a narrower last, but would then likely require some customization, would need them softened, and would benefit from replacing the boot board and adding grippy lifters. Issue is nobody in our vicinity (Rossland BC) has the stock or skills to handle this, and travelling for boot fitting seems impractical?

Atleast if you do they last a long time. Pulse in revy can probably help.

[SacTo]

Atleast if you do they last a long time. Pulse in revy can probably help.

Probably someone in Nelson too.

[kokomas]

If you’re a 26.5. I have some 97 last Dobermans with maybe 5 days on them that I’d sell super cheap. They even have the better pro machine cork liner in them. The rec race Doberman comes with a crap liner where as the full World Cup boot has great liner.

Thanks but I'm 28 or 29. Just reading through blister but Doberman absent. Can anyone compare flex pattern and feel to the Redster and raptors which are widely reviewed? I tend to be a Nordica guy

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[plugboots]

Couldn’t someone at TVS or wherever, after some fitting to be sure, order the boots you want? I got my plugs, (a long time ago, but anyway), by having the Lange rep ordering them.

[kokomas]

Yep perhaps, working with the main guy from JH Sports but I don't know what to ask for, at trying to narrow it down

Edit: and also just generally confused why Redsters, Raptors, sometimes Lange RS are generally lumped into the club sport category but Doberman GPs are not. Maybe I'm just making that up

[swerve]

Kokomas, here's some Nordica GP's on ebay. Conveniently enough the seller is here in Jackson so you might be able to try them on before buying.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/27574712808...Bk9SR9LjkODeYQ

I haven't been in there in a while but Matt Sheets at TVS did great work on my current boots. Also had him make some insoles that have been solid.

[kokomas]

Checking it out, nice find, thanks

[SacTo]

Yep perhaps, working with the main guy from JH Sports but I don't know what to ask for, at trying to narrow it down

Edit: and also just generally confused why Redsters, Raptors, sometimes Lange RS are generally lumped into the club sport category but Doberman GPs are not. Maybe I'm just making that up

Well they’re at least, 4, and I think 5 different versions of a Lange RS. The off the shelf RS, the ZA, ZB, ZC and I believe a ZJ. All have different widths and I believe some are a bit stiffer than others.
Edit: there are 9 different RS!
Two are “club sport” and the rest are “World Cup”
https://www.lange-boots.com/products/skiboots/race

[J. Barron DeJong]

Well they’re at least, 4, and I think 5 different versions of a Lange RS. The off the shelf RS, the ZA, ZB, ZC and I believe a ZJ. All have different widths and I believe some are a bit stiffer than others.
Edit: there are 9 different RS!
Two are “club sport” and the rest are “World Cup”
https://www.lange-boots.com/products/skiboots/race

There are a lot of RSs:




https://issuu.com/zuzupopo/docs/lang...t=new-get-link

(Last year’s catalog. Couldn’t find 2023)

I think only the ZA, ZB, and ZC would typically be referred to as plugs.

[SacTo]

Well they’re at least, 4, and I think 5 different versions of a Lange RS. The off the shelf RS, the ZA, ZB, ZC and I believe a ZJ. All have different widths and I believe some are a bit stiffer than others.
Edit: there are 9 different RS!
Two are “club sport” and the rest are “World Cup”
https://www.lange-boots.com/products/skiboots/race

I was only counting 130 and up flexing

[MTT]

No You don't boots have come a very long way