Canting

[skinipenem]

Things that are done inside the boot tend to occur primarily in the foot and ankle. Things that are done on the bottom of the boot tend to show up more at the hip. Canting the bottom of the boot sole will rotate the entire leg at the hip socket with minimal effect on the foot and ankle.
While it is true that you can post an orthotic medially and rotate the leg externally, as you begin to exceed the appropriate amount, you start to limit available range of motion in the foot and ankle, most importantly, certainly where skiing is concerned, dorsiflexion.
All of the motions of the lower extremity are triplanar in nature. When you create a movement or change in one plane, you also create change in the other two. Whether you meant to or not.
Additionally, the position of one set of joints will increase or decrease the range of motion in adjacent joints.
This is Foot and Ankle Mechanics 101.
C'mon you people are supposed to be Internet Authorities.

This^

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[skinipenem]

I used a foot bed which cleared up my problem so I'm suggesting the use of a foot bed be it custom or off the rack might fix alignment issues before one starts canting or grinding

so are you suggesting skiers not use a foot bed ?

Footbeds are good.
You are confusing issues. No offense intended.

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[tenB]

Most boots with tech inserts and walk mode don’t have adjustable cuffs. What kind of boots did you get?

[XXX-er]

Footbeds are good.
You are confusing issues. No offense intended.

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Outside of maybe some worldcup racers I don't hear of the average skier canting boot soles or bindings

so what are the issues I am confusing ?

you are saying food beds don't affect the need to cant of not,

I disagree,

[onenerdykid]

Outside of maybe some worldcup racers I don't hear of the average skier canting boot soles or bindings

so what are the issues I am confusing ?

you are saying food beds don't affect the need to cant of not,

I disagree,

It's more about why you use a footbed, why you use sole canting, and the order of operations.

Footbeds and sole canting do different things and for different reasons. Yes, a footbed will reposition the ankle & the knee in relation to the hip, but that's not why we use footbeds. Footbeds create the proper interface between the flexible foot and the rigid ski boot, properly supporting the foot, holding it in the correct position inside the ski boot. Sole canting aligns the ankle, the knee, and the hip in order to have better balance and ultimately more efficient control of the ski. Initiating a turn takes less effort. More power is directed to the ski, and the skier has an easier time staying balanced & centered from turn to turn.

In order to properly sole cant a boot, you need a footbed to properly position the foot & ankle inside the boot. Without doing that, your ankle will be in the wrong spot, and so will your knee and you will be incorrectly sole canting the boot. So, get a proper footbed first, then do sole canting (among other things) after.

The general order of operations is usually this:
1. proper footbed
2. fitting of the shell & liner
3. adjusting forward lean
4. cuff alignment
5. sole canting

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Outside of maybe some worldcup racers I don't hear of the average skier canting boot soles or bindings

so what are the issues I am confusing ?

you are saying food beds don't affect the need to cant of not,

I disagree,

I'm a below average skier...Green Mountain Orthotics did a full workup on me back in 2004. I was skiing in plug boots back then so maybe that changes things.

I have horribly fallen arches and pronate to the point I wear out the heels of shoes on the sides, not the back. First thing GMOL did was fix the pronation with custom, posted foot beds. Then they had me go ski. Life changing difference.

They brought me back in and found that my right knee was different from my left knee (can't even remember what they said) and added a shim in the cuff of my boot to address that. Then they had me go out and ski. Less dramatic difference but I noticed that my left and right turns were much more similar.

Last thing they did was assess the need for canting. Only needed canting on the right boot. They shaved the boot sole. It was only 0.5* and to be honest, I couldn't tell the difference. I stopped skiing in those boots in 2014 and transitioned to touring boots. Have always had custom footbeds but never went back to canting. Now, my right knee is worn out and will likely need to be replaced in the next 2-3 years. Correlation vs. causation? Who knows....?

[XXX-er]

It's more about why you use a footbed, why you use sole canting, and the order of operations.

Footbeds and sole canting do different things and for different reasons. Yes, a footbed will reposition the ankle & the knee in relation to the hip, but that's not why we use footbeds. Footbeds create the proper interface between the flexible foot and the rigid ski boot, properly supporting the foot, holding it in the correct position inside the ski boot. Sole canting aligns the ankle, the knee, and the hip in order to have better balance and ultimately more efficient control of the ski. Initiating a turn takes less effort. More power is directed to the ski, and the skier has an easier time staying balanced & centered from turn to turn.

In order to properly sole cant a boot, you need a footbed to properly position the foot & ankle inside the boot. Without doing that, your ankle will be in the wrong spot, and so will your knee and you will be incorrectly sole canting the boot. So, get a proper footbed first, then do sole canting (among other things) after.

The general order of operations is usually this:
1. proper footbed
2. fitting of the shell & liner
3. adjusting forward lean
4. cuff alignment
5. sole canting

yeah ok but my point would probably be that in spite of flatfoot/ pronating badly/ knees touching I have managed to fix my self up with foot beds

so maybe not all skiers need canting, i don't hear about the average skier canting anything

But the op who does not sound like a plugboot wearing WC skier buys new boots and gets canting with no foot beds ... maybe something back wards there ?

and we will leave it at that

[onenerdykid]

yeah ok but my point would probably be that in spite of flatfoot/ pronating badly/ knees touching I have managed to fix my self up with foot beds

so maybe not all skiers need canting, i don't hear about the average skier canting anything

But the op who does not sound like a plugboot wearing WC skier buys new boots and gets canting with no foot beds ... maybe something back wards there ?

and we will leave it at that

Agreed that something seems off with the OP's order of operations. Sole canting is not that common outside of racing and it's mainly found at race-oriented shops.. It requires a lot of training and VERY expensive machines for a shop to invest in. Almost everyone can benefit from sole canting, but since we learn to live with our imbalances and weirdnesses, most people just keep on skiing. But, it is like having highly tuned suspension and a very dialed bike fit - going back to normal once the fancy stuff has been done can be a disappointing change. Outside of racing, sole canting can definitely help mere mortals by alleviate knee pain, hip pain, etc. It can be a cure for pain that isn't remedied by a custom footbed and the right boot.

[Flexon Phil]

Sole canting is not that common outside of racing and it's mainly found at race-oriented shops.. It requires a lot of training and VERY expensive machines for a shop to invest in. Almost everyone can benefit from sole canting, but since we learn to live with our imbalances and weirdnesses, most people just keep on skiing. But, it is like having highly tuned suspension and a very dialed bike fit - going back to normal once the fancy stuff has been done can be a disappointing change. Outside of racing, sole canting can definitely help mere mortals by alleviate knee pain, hip pain, etc. It can be a cure for pain that isn't remedied by a custom footbed and the right boot.

I assess for canting with bootfit I do, it is part of the fit process for everyone. A properly canted boot at times is the missing link to their progression.

[skinipenem]

I assess for canting with bootfit I do, it is part of the fit process for everyone. A properly canted boot at times is the missing link to their progression.

^this

And sure there are people in the world that don't benefit from canting. My wife, for example, pre-kids had anatomy that was perfectly aligned and only required centering the cuffs.

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[jummo]

Not everyone needs canting, but everyone does benefit from a good boot set up. A proper footbed, cuff alignment and fore aft balance can go a long ways.
It is unfortunate that stance based boot fitting is more common in the race world than the regular world. The average WC Athlete is not average at all. They are elite athletes, with carefully constructed training regimens and every possible effort goes into making sure their equipment is perfectly tailored to their needs.
The average skier is just that, average. Well, maybe not here on TGR, as some of you are obviously quite special.
But the average skier has a much bigger envelope of potential improvement than the average elite racer.
They stand to benefit as much or more than someone who is already really good.

[rod9301]

Not only this, but elite athletes are already fortunate to be fairly well aligned naturally, part of the reason they are elite

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[XXX-er]

Agreed that something seems off with the OP's order of operations. Sole canting is not that common outside of racing and it's mainly found at race-oriented shops.. It requires a lot of training and VERY expensive machines for a shop to invest in. Almost everyone can benefit from sole canting, but since we learn to live with our imbalances and weirdnesses, most people just keep on skiing. But, it is like having highly tuned suspension and a very dialed bike fit - going back to normal once the fancy stuff has been done can be a disappointing change. Outside of racing, sole canting can definitely help mere mortals by alleviate knee pain, hip pain, etc. It can be a cure for pain that isn't remedied by a custom footbed and the right boot.

yeah i can agree with this ^^

not common/ racers only/ by racing oriented shops where someone knows WTF they are doing/ the last of 5 things you do

no one has ever told me they got their boots ground and I'm sure i would have heard but its not common around here and we have lots of racers

I think i know a guy in calgary only 13hrs away who could do it but my sense is that the snow doesnt suck enough here to bother with such a thing

[jummo]

Not only this, but elite athletes are already fortunate to be fairly well aligned naturally, part of the reason they are elite

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That has not been my experience. There was a time when I thought that too. But it was a long time and a whole bunch of skiers ago.

[XXX-er]

be it skiing or f'tba/ gymnastics/ or especaily hockey

a lot of the elite athelete experiance is not about boot cant

its about how much money ( > 5 figures) their parents can thro at it

[skinipenem]

be it skiing or f'tba/ gymnastics/ or especaily hockey

a lot of the elite athelete experiance is not about boot cant

its about how much money ( > 5 figures) their parents can thro at it

Let the thread drift begin... lol

I had the conversation about naturally well aligned wc level racers with a bootfitter for elite wc racers a number of years ago. He said that successful European racers tended toward better natural alignment because at that time European junior racing didn't spend much effort on alignment whereas the US racers did more so. Not sure if that was entirely accurate, but interesting.

As for cash support, I have no idea how anyone affords putting their kids through a ski racing career. The expense is massive.

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[One (+) Sentence]

no one has ever told me they got their boots ground and I'm sure i would have heard but its not common around here and we have lots of racers

Do you not remember Jay, Kim, and crew at Soze Group? They had a good 20 year run in your backyard and literally built some of the very best equipment for doing these mods/corrections to alpine ski boots.

[XXX-er]

zero idea who these ^^^^ people are let alone remember them,

google soze group and it could be Toronto could be richmond

which are not really my back yard

I think lou in calgary might do that stuff

[jummo]

Do you not remember Jay, Kim, and crew at Soze Group? They had a good 20 year run in your backyard and literally built some of the very best equipment for doing these mods/corrections to alpine ski boots.

I did a lot of business with them when they were the distributor for Sidas. One of my all time favorite tools is a Keyser.

[californiagrown]

I am only familiar with cunting


...up threads on TGR.

[gregL]

Do you not remember Jay, Kim, and crew at Soze Group? They had a good 20 year run in your backyard and literally built some of the very best equipment for doing these mods/corrections to alpine ski boots.

They are sill doing it, but somewhat more slowly. I have a new Keyser press on order but it likely won't ship in time for much of the winter.

[XavierD]

Most people don’t need canting, some who don’t need it could still benefit from it. People who need it probably won’t end up on the World Cup.

[Flexon Phil]

Most people don’t need canting, some who don’t need it could still benefit from it. People who need it probably won’t end up on the World Cup.

You would be surprised in that of the people I do assessments on more than half are out of alignment. Whether they end up on the World Cup, those that do need it definately benefit from it.

[One (+) Sentence]

I suspect most the naysayers on the benefits of stance alignment:

1- Have never been assessed by an experienced bootfitter with the correct tools to actually perform this modification.

and/or

2- Ski in a boot with improved walk ability (and perhaps pin-tech bindings) that couldn’t be properly planed and routed to begin with, under the guise of skiing a “side country” zone once or twice a season.

Just a hunch, and I’ve certainly been wrong before.

Edit: To O.P. - 5 degrees is A LOT. 2 degrees is a lot. Get a second opinion on that assessment. Honestly, many grindable boots couldn’t handle 5 degrees of correction to begin with.

[jummo]

People who need it and don't get it probably won’t end up on the World Cup.

Fixed it for you.