Metal skis - inherently demanding?

[gregL]

I had a personal experience with Atomic Rituals. They had an unusual flex (stiffer tips and softer tails) and a variable sidecut, but serious metal. They were great skis. I busted an edge on the Rituals and got Atomic's "replacement" the Vantage, which had lost the metal and replaced it with "carbon tank mesh" to allegedly make them lighter and smoother. They certainly are lighter, but totally sucked in every aspect of performance, despite the lasted technology for metal replacement. This is only one case study but is indicative of my life long experience with skis lacking metal. My only exception is when it comes to powder skis.

Yeah, the Ritual was a nice ski, but you had to be careful not to load the tails too much coming out of a turn at speed. I had a pair of shop demos (actually they only gave us one, I had to trade another shop for the matching ski) with clear topsheets so you could see the wavy "fish-skeleton" Titanal insert they CNC'd in. They should do that with the Chetlers, that would really be something.

They did make Vantage skis with metal, the Vantage 97ti for instance, that were worthy rides, but you had to watch for them. Anything that said simply "Vantage" or "C" had no Titanal.

[bry]

This is what I did last year. Went through ten (?) pair, skied most a min of 5 days, and more for the ones I liked (obviously). Not terribly hard to find long lengths steeply discounted so usually didn’t lose more than $100-200 per flip (tax inclusive). Not cheap (and fortunate to be able to pull it off), but I now have a much better handle on what I like. Speed dating at its finest. Plus, it was fun as fuck!

Hey I've been meaning to ask you if you've skied the Prior Patroller with the metal layup. You should check them out. I'd love to know what you think. You can demo the 190 from the factory. Check out the Overlords too for resort pow.

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[Sylvan]

Hey I've been meaning to ask you if you've skied the Prior Patroller with the metal layup. You should check them out. I'd love to know what you think. You can demo the 190 from the factory. Check out the Overlords too for resort pow.

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I unfortunately have not, but I did just send you a PM!

PS. As a rule, metal skis are not inherently demanding

[Duffman]

In my case, selecting a 100ish woman's ski to replace my wife's old skis, i primarily I wanted a ski that has a loose tail and low swing weight to help her stay confident and off of her heals in steeps with chunder and bumps. This is where she struggles.

She also doesn't have a lot of angulation on piste. She learned to ski later in life than most of us.

Will metal help her? No. She doesn't go fast through chop or rip high speed high angle turns.

Can a metal ski have a loose tail? Sure.

Does she have enough angulation and speed to take advantage of metals dampening and torsional characteristics on a 100 ish skis on groomers? Meh, probably not.

Her old skis don't have metal either, and they have been kicking her ass lately. ON3P Viciks that were my stepsons, then hers. They worked fine for her for a few years as she has built on her fundamentals but she has been following me and now our daughter into ever more aggressive terrain and they have not been doing her any favors.

Santa Ana was a leading contender but she doesn't need the metal and the reviews I read from woman don't agree with my opinion of the E104 which imo couldn't be any more loose and turny unless maybe they were a street hooker.

She demoed Ripstick 102's last year. They weren't an improvement. I wouldn't let her demo the female version of the Rustler 10 because those were some of the worst skis I have ever skied.

I wish she could have tried the SA and a few more skis.

So, based on Blister mostly, Rallybirds it is. It isn't about the lack of metal so much as it is just a ski that targets what she needs right now.

Also,.the Rallybird Ti certainly sounds more demanding than the Rallbird.

So the answer is probably yes, but it depends.

Damn, just read this now, describes my wife to a tee. Got her the Liberty Genesis 101 to replace her old Atomic Century this year. Think the liberty may have a small sheet of metal only underfoot, but I could be wrong.

Sorry for the thread drift....

[lowsparkco]

I'm far from having the physics and mathematical understanding of an engineer, but this discussion reminds me of the typical backcountry cost benefit analysis of weight. Andrew McLean often espoused "weight is great, but light is right."

It's long been a belief in any type of activity where you put in a lot of steps that you really have to be attentive to weight at your feet, so far away from your center of gravity. Working on snow and watching beginners I've often theorized that they would progress more quickly through the most elementary progressions in lighter equipment. Many simply do not have the strength to manipulate typical alpine gear very adeptly. I think that certainly plays into the discussion of what kind of demanding are we discussing? Physically, as in strength and endurance or coordination, and mentally as in experience and converting a line into execution of muscle memory, or attention and ability to quickly alter our decision from visual and physical feedback? What are our goals? 1 run as fast and as in control as possible, first chair to lunch and then cruisers with the family, charge until the new snow is crud, or charge all day? We would all have different ability and stamina and would have our own "sweet spot" of weight and turnability.

It also makes a ton of sense to me what Marshall is referring to that the torsional stiffness is raised by the planar surface of the sheets of metal while the linear axis in the same plane as the camber would not necessarily be effected as much. That, the longest axis of the ski, would mostly be controlled by the core material and the 3D profile edge to edge from tip to tail and would be apples and oranges as you certainly wouldn't use the same design and zero, one, or two sheets of metal. Thanks Marshall for using the Enforcer and the Dynastar LPR as the examples, two skis I own. 100% agree that the softer tail and lower turn radius on the Enforcers are integral to them being more user friendly.

I guess I'm squarely in the metal sheet camp, as I even prefer it in my touring skis. I just think that inevitably I often find a band of challenging wind slab or ice that I simply want the added control. I generally prefer traditional half camber unless I'm willing to go home or switch boards as soon as the conditions change. It's probably my favorite thing about gravity sports... you can add and take things away from a design, but generally it's a net sum game. My suggestion to the husbands and dads that are drilling in trying to help partners and children is to also take a hard look at boots. We are often very calculated about ski weight, but ultimately the ski, boot, and binding work as a system. It's uncanny how many times you look around at the folks struggling the most and they're clearly in gear that doesn't work well as a system. Boots too soft or too heavy, skis too short or with too low a turn radius, boots too big and not buckled down adequately... it would be tough for the most gifted skier much less a rank beginner to enjoy skiing with some of these errors in equipment.

[old goat]

As I understand it, Titanal is basically aluminum. By itself a thin sheet of it is not stiff and not heavy. It stiffens and dampens a ski lengthwise and torsionally because it is very strong in tension--ie you can't stretch it. When a ski bends the outside of the bend gets longer and the inside gets shorter. When the Titanal is glued to the core that resistance to stretching means it's hard for the outside of the bend to get longer--that means the ski is stiffer. I wonder how many skis that wear out do so because the glue fails so the metal isn't doing anything (I'm thinking of a particular pair of red Mantras I had that got downright scary on anything firm after a few seasons.) I should have cut them open to see if there was internal delam. Instead I gave them to my kid.

As far as demanding--as others have said, that depends. Put a racer on a steep hard course on a pair of beginner skis and I bet they'd find them very demanding. But in general "demanding" is a term aimed at beginner--intermediate skiers and means hard to turn at slow speed, and metal makes a ski more demading in that sense because it requires more force to bend, and at slow speed there isn't enough angular momentum to bend the ski unless the skier is fat.

[lowsparkco]

As I understand it, Titanal is basically aluminum. By itself a thin sheet of it is not stiff and not heavy. It stiffens and dampens a ski lengthwise and torsionally because it is very strong in tension--ie you can't stretch it. When a ski bends the outside of the bend gets longer and the inside gets shorter. When the Titanal is glued to the core that resistance to stretching means it's hard for the outside of the bend to get longer--that means the ski is stiffer. I wonder how many skis that wear out do so because the glue fails so the metal isn't doing anything (I'm thinking of a particular pair of red Mantras I had that got downright scary on anything firm after a few seasons.) I should have cut them open to see if there was internal delam. Instead I gave them to my kid.

As far as demanding--as others have said, that depends. Put a racer on a steep hard course on a pair of beginner skis and I bet they'd find them very demanding. But in general "demanding" is a term aimed at beginner--intermediate skiers and means hard to turn at slow speed, and metal makes a ski more demading in that sense because it requires more force to bend, and at slow speed there isn't enough angular momentum to bend the ski unless the skier is fat.

Well said.

I've always heard the same about Titanal. It's basically Al, with just enough titanium and vanadium for marketing purposes.

[tuco]

Neither titanium or vanadium in titanal

[detrusor]

I prefer to think of it as Tit Anal


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[J. Barron DeJong]

Neither titanium or vanadium in titanal

There’s a very small amount of titanium in Titanal:

• Use of an alloy containing (indicated in weight percentage):
  up to 0.15 % silicon, up to 0.3 % iron, 1.4 to 2.0 % copper, up to 0.10 % manganese, 2.5 to 3.5 % magnesium, up to 0.1 % chromium, 6.8 to 7.9 % zinc, 0.05 to 0.1 % titanium, 0.05 to 0.18 % zircon, the rest consisting of aluminium and impurities, for sporting devices under vibratory stress.
  

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0233858B1/en

[old goat]

0.05--0.1% Titanium? I believe that triggers an automatic recount.

[J. Barron DeJong]

0.05--0.1% Titanium? I believe that triggers an automatic recount.

Yeah, I get that it’s not a lot, and I’m not a materials expert so can’t tell you what the specific benefit of having Ti in there is, but some alloys just have very small amounts of various elements, including Ti.

AL-7068 for example:



My only point is that if someone’s thinking they only put a tiny bit of Ti in there just so they could call it Titanal, that’s probably not the case.

[Core Shot]

I prefer to think of it as Tit Anal


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It was. And always will be.

Tight Anal

[detrusor]

I stand corrected


But VAS on old Rossi 4S still stands for vaginal attack system?

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[skinipenem]

I stand corrected


But VAS on old Rossi 4S still stands for vaginal attack system?

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Vaginal Anal System

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[lrn2swim]

Damn, just read this now, describes my wife to a tee. Got her the Liberty Genesis 101 to replace her old Atomic Century this year. Think the liberty may have a small sheet of metal only underfoot, but I could be wrong.

Sorry for the thread drift....

Ha, me too big time. Was looking for the same ski as well, got her a pair of Faction Dictator 2.0x (the rad pink ones from last year). She loves them so far. Two sheets of metal but a medium even flex throughout. Really helps her keep stable and confident at speed, something she often struggles with.

[gregL]

There’s a very small amount of titanium in Titanal:

• Use of an alloy containing (indicated in weight percentage):
  up to 0.15 % silicon, up to 0.3 % iron, 1.4 to 2.0 % copper, up to 0.10 % manganese, 2.5 to 3.5 % magnesium, up to 0.1 % chromium, 6.8 to 7.9 % zinc, 0.05 to 0.1 % titanium, 0.05 to 0.18 % zircon, the rest consisting of aluminium and impurities, for sporting devices under vibratory stress.
  

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0233858B1/en

The first time I looked it up on the AMAG (Austria Metall AG, the only source of Titanal) site about 8 years ago they said it had a tiny amount of Titanium, the current literature says no:
"The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium."

Emailing AMAG customer care to confirm . . .

[J. Barron DeJong]

The first time I looked it up on the AMAG (Austria Metall AG, the only source of Titanal) site about 8 years ago they said it had a tiny amount of Titanium, the current literature says no:
"The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium."

Emailing AMAG customer care to confirm . . .

Well that only adds up to 99.8%

[tuco]

The first time I looked it up on the AMAG (Austria Metall AG, the only source of Titanal) site about 8 years ago they said it had a tiny amount of Titanium, the current literature says no:
"The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium."

Emailing AMAG customer care to confirm . . .

These Blizzards be backed by straight titanium

[gregL]

These Blizzards be backed by straight titanium

More like backed by straight marketing bullshit. Blizzard, Völkl, Atomic and others have periodically used the word "Titanium" in marketing copy or something like "Powered by Titanium", all falsely.

[tuco]

More like backed by straight marketing bullshit. Blizzard, Völkl, Atomic and others have periodically used the word "Titanium" in marketing copy or something like "Powered by Titanium", all falsely.

Yeah, it's one thing in marketing literature. People that write that shit don't know the difference between damping vs. dampening. Printed on the topsheet takes it up a notch!

[Anachronist]

Yeah, I get that it’s not a lot, and I’m not a materials expert so can’t tell you what the specific benefit of having Ti in there is, but some alloys just have very small amounts of various elements, including Ti.

AL-7068 for example:



My only point is that if someone’s thinking they only put a tiny bit of Ti in there just so they could call it Titanal, that’s probably not the case.

Titanium gets used in wrought aluminum alloys (i.e. 4 digit alloys like 6xxx, 7xxx, etc. type series including classics like 6061, 7075) mainly for grain refinement during the casting process. Ti forms intermetallic TiAl3 solid particles in the molten aluminum which Al grains nucleate off of. Usually they also add grain refiner rod containing TiB particles, which nucleate grains as well. More grains nucleating = smaller grains = more grain boundaries = stronger material.

[waxoff]

Titanium gets used in wrought aluminum alloys (i.e. 4 digit alloys like 6xxx, 7xxx, etc. type series including classics like 6061, 7075) mainly for grain refinement during the casting process. Ti forms intermetallic TiAl3 solid particles in the molten aluminum which Al grains nucleate off of. Usually they also add grain refiner rod containing TiB particles, which nucleate grains as well. More grains nucleating = smaller grains = more grain boundaries = stronger material.

Now there's an informed response. Thanks. Hats off to you, sir!

[J. Barron DeJong]

Titanium gets used in wrought aluminum alloys (i.e. 4 digit alloys like 6xxx, 7xxx, etc. type series including classics like 6061, 7075) mainly for grain refinement during the casting process. Ti forms intermetallic TiAl3 solid particles in the molten aluminum which Al grains nucleate off of. Usually they also add grain refiner rod containing TiB particles, which nucleate grains as well. More grains nucleating = smaller grains = more grain boundaries = stronger material.

Thanks.

Grain refinement is definitely something I heard about in materials class and then never spoke of again in the following two decades.

[gregL]

Titanium gets used in wrought aluminum alloys (i.e. 4 digit alloys like 6xxx, 7xxx, etc. type series including classics like 6061, 7075) mainly for grain refinement during the casting process. Ti forms intermetallic TiAl3 solid particles in the molten aluminum which Al grains nucleate off of. Usually they also add grain refiner rod containing TiB particles, which nucleate grains as well. More grains nucleating = smaller grains = more grain boundaries = stronger material.

Wow, good stuff Anachronist, thank you!