Ukraine

[PB]

It was a Golden Time, a Time destined to be obliterated by the greed and venality of ..... pretty much every one.

[LongShortLong]

When it comes to aid we've seen throughout starting with the four months long debate about whether to send Western artillery is whenever we hear it won't make any difference it's coming from a place of fear, fear of defeating Russia

There's some of that for sure. The fear of not defeating Russia should also be weighed. It's pretty clear based on the Kremlin's own statements, that if they aren't defeated in Ukraine, they intend to invade elsewhere in a few years.

Ukraine's allies need to decide that Ukraine is going to win, and send the support to get it done. IMO (harping on it), we're always sending the bare minimum that might be useful. In contrast to other conflicts - when NATO decides to fight, we send resources for overkill and get it done. E.g. A few dozen tanks for Ukraine against Russia vs a few thousand tanks for US against Iraq.

[altacoup]

^^
There’s only one political party in the west that is fucking this whole thing up. And it’s all to bolster a orange traitor.

[rod9301]

It doesn't look like neither Ukraine nor Russia will win. It might end up like north end south Korea.
With a lot of people dying

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[rod9301]

Sorry,

It looks like neither Ukraine nor Russia is going to win.

Too late for clear thinking.

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[Viva]

...fear of defeating Russia

The fear of not defeating Russia should also be weighed.

Fascinating conjecture, but either being true begs the question of what's actually motivating such fears.

Not all motivations are rational. The US's haphazard support for Ukraine is difficult to reconcile with the axiom that nations work in their individual best interests, but it does kinda make sense if we recognize that such acts can be in our perceived self-interest.

What have we seen:

- A seeming inability to act in our own interests
- An inability to clearly state our position, or expressing what we want out of this
- Repeated attempts to convince ourselves that Ukraine's situation is hopeless
- Rationalization for our reluctance to act in a timely manner
- Fixation on past attempts at intervention that failed
- The expressed belief that our actions will result in dire consequences despite evidence to the contrary

I'm guessing that there are folks in our government who genuinely care and want Russia to lose, yet find themselves hoping Putin will triumph in order to assuage the uncertainty driving their stress.

Circling back to the above quotes, fear of Russian "whatever" is simply pessimism, and the consequences of pessimism, at a time like this, are serious. What's lacking in the west is leadership.

Go back to Kyiv in February 2022. President Biden offered shelter and safety-in-exile to President Zelensky (who was wearing plates and a ballistic helmet at the time). But Zelensky said "fuck it" and stayed.

Biden's a pessimist.

He is not so mired in helplessness as certain other leaders, but he ain't entirely his own man. He sure as fuck ain't the saviour of Ukraine.

Zelensky, even if he fails, may be.

[MultiVerse]

It doesn't look like neither Ukraine nor Russia will win. It might end up like north end south Korea.
With a lot of people dying

Sorry,

It looks like neither Ukraine nor Russia is going to win.

Too late for clear thinking.

Ukraine already handed Russia a strategic defeat. Given Rod and so many others argued back in winter 2022 that Ukraine should just surrender the entire country because they were going to lose anyway, the fact that 80% of the country still remains in the light while only 20% is cloaked in brutal occupied darkness is no small accomplishment.

Putin, however, still believes he can take it all. His fallback position is destroying Ukrainian society and its economy. So even if Ukraine can't free occupied territory from Russia's grasp, a democratic thriving independent Ukraine in a South Korean scenario is still very much in American and European interest. How the West supports Ukraine in the next year will leave a lasting mark on history for decades and even centuries:

[MultiVerse]

Ukraine's allies need to decide that Ukraine is going to win, and send the support to get it done.

Yes, because Ukraine can still soundly defeat Russia and win back its territory. British general Sir Richard Barrons explains how at a forum in Lucerne, Switzerland: "Do not tell me its unaffordable, because you represent an economy of 15 trillion euros a year. Give me 75 billion euros a year for 2-3 years and I will make the Ukrainian army win."

[rod9301]

Ukraine already handed Russia a strategic defeat. Given Rod and so many others argued back in winter 2022 that Ukraine should just surrender the entire country because they were going to lose anyway, the fact that 80% of the country still remains in the light while only 20% is cloaked in brutal occupied darkness is no small accomplishment.

Putin, however, still believes he can take it all. His fallback position is destroying Ukrainian society and its economy. So even if Ukraine can't free occupied territory from Russia's grasp, a democratic thriving independent Ukraine in a South Korean scenario is still very much in American and European interest. How the West supports Ukraine in the next year will leave a lasting mark on history for decades and even centuries:

You could be right there Putin wants the whole Ukraine, but i don't think so.

1. Western Ukraine is majority ukrainian and it would be next to impossible for Russia to govern it, as opposed to Eastern part with mostly Russian speaking.

2. The formidable defenses Russia built this year, plus the millions of mines indicate to me that this the the new border with Ukraine.

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[twat]

You could be right there Putin wants the whole Ukraine, but i don't think so.

1. Western Ukraine is majority ukrainian and it would be next to impossible for Russia to govern it, as opposed to Eastern part with mostly Russian speaking.

2. The formidable defenses Russia built this year, plus the millions of mines indicate to me that this the the new border with Ukraine.

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Rod? Do you think the padded room is a debate class? Argue with your friends or people you ride the chair with! But please stop it! 2years in and nobody agrees with you.

[ötzi]

Rod's been wrong a lot but he might not be completely wrong on this. There's no way Russia is going to overrun Ukraine at this point but it's going to be very hard to dislodge them from what they currently control. I still think Russia runs out of money before too long and we'll see what happens then, but for now it's a bit of a stalemate.

[MultiVerse]

Rod's been consistently proven wrong about everything thus far so there's no reason to think he's right this time. Especially when he's so wrong on the facts:

1. Clearly Putin is for the moment not satisfied with what he has now. Despite Russian propaganda, there is no real evidence Russia wants to stop the war
2. Yet, despite Putin wanting us to think it's a stalemate there is no reasons to suppose he wants years of grueling attritional warfare without a major breakthrough any more than Zelensky and the West want the same. He mostly wants us to believe in Russian resolve more than we believe in our own resolve
3. The defenses are less important than Russian mobilization. For the moment the Kremlin is willing to accept enormous losses to hold the line. But Russia cannot sustain its losses forever. Putin is holding on ahead of U.S. elections in 2024
4. Russian speaking or not a majority of Ukrainians, including Russian speaking Ukrainians in the east, voted in free elections to remain with Ukraine. It was only the sham elections held at occupied gunpoint, which Rod propagandized as legitimate, that suggest otherwise. Free Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do Russia

[twat]

Rod's been wrong a lot but he might not be completely wrong on this. There's no way Russia is going to overrun Ukraine at this point but it's going to be very hard to dislodge them from what they currently control. I still think Russia runs out of money before too long and we'll see what happens then, but for now it's a bit of a stalemate.

Yes the repetition of Stoltenberg’s statements: „we are in for a long war“ sounds very much like propaganda messages to me. Like telling Russia we can play the game for years sacrificing Ukrainian soldiers and old arms.

[MultiVerse]

—Carl Bildt Co-Chair of European Council on Foreign Relations: "In Dubai I had a couple of conversations with people in the Russian security intelligentsia. They were hell bent on continuing the war against Ukraine. The minimum objective was described as occupying Odesa and Kharkiv as well, and then some sort of controlled regime in Kyiv."

—On Friday Putin didn’t sound like a dictator interested in a negotiated peace with Ukraine: “They’re running out [of weapons]… They don’t have anything, they have no future. But we do have a future.”
https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/st...26361897136303

[Casey E]

Basically, the US of A is rootin' for Putin at this point. Too many dumbfucks crapping their pants, as in to hell with the future of freedom, like this marine

SCOTT RITTER, former US Marine Corps intelligence officer, former UN weapons inspector : Zelensky is making a desperate bet to get the international community to continue his losing conflict with Russia. The world he talks about is not really a world. It involves more war, because to achieve what Zelensky claims must be achieved to establish peace, Ukraine must strategically defeat Russia. This doesn't happen. And here we come to the second part of your question: what to do with a leader who is so out of touch with reality? Because even if the United States can break the impasse in Washington over funding for Ukraine, there is not enough money in the world to reverse what is happening on the battlefield in Ukraine. Ukraine suffered a strategic defeat. Their army admitted: we have gone on the defensive, there is no talk of a counter-offensive. Even Ukraine's closest allies say they don't think Ukraine will be able to resume its counteroffensive until 2025. At best, this means that throughout 2024 Kyiv will have to defend itself, being in a disadvantageous position, against the Russian army, which is winning victories everywhere and achieving serious successes. Honestly, she (Russia. - InoTV ) is on the verge of destroying the cohesion of the Ukrainian army. This means that there will no longer be any front line to defend. Zelensky is so out of touch with reality that he has actually become a threat to the international community, which is why you are increasingly seeing talk about replacing Zelensky. I think that this is so, that Zelensky is already history, he is no more, he is finished. We are now just waiting for this to happen. Publication date December 12, 2023. Оригинал новости ИноТВ: https://russian.rt.com/inotv/2023-12...tatochno-deneg

[m2711c]

Does anybody really take that child molester seriously anymore?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Don’t underestimate the power of Community Notes.

[PB]

I have it on good authority that they were Nazi donuts.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Dang

[highangle]

Tad Devine and Paul Manafort worked for Putin in Ukraine before they simultaneously led Bernie Sanders' and Donald Трамп's respective presidential campaigns.

[Toadman]

Does anybody really take that child molester seriously anymore?

You would be surprised. The Grand Old Pedo party is listening to a fellow child molester. Seriously.

[ex-powderbroker]

he’s probably taking in millions with an equal match from putin.

[summit]

How the F-16 will help Ukraine
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKR...S/jnvwwqyylvw/
Nicely done modern web article

[xyz]

How the F-16 will help Ukraine
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKR...S/jnvwwqyylvw/
Nicely done modern web article

This is excellent news….for the military industrial complex.

[summit]

This is excellent news….for the military industrial complex.

I'm confused... did you have a point or are you just complaining about reality?