Ukraine

[highangle]

Wot?

I might have you confused with SumJongGuy about the Nazi thing, but blame China for China and blame Russia for Russia, OK? They have agency.

And let's all quit throwing in a negative or caveat about America every fucking time we open our mouths about world affairs.
America is fucking cool. Anything you want we got it right here in the USA. We won the World War Two to establish hegemony. We didn't fucking steal it.

[summit]

And let's all quit throwing in a negative or caveat about America every fucking time we open our mouths about world affairs.
America is fucking cool. Anything you want we got it right here in the USA. We won the World War Two to establish hegemony. We didn't fucking steal it.

And fought the Cold War to keep Russia from taking over as hegemon.

There will always be one... or two.

America is the most benevolent hegemon the world has ever seen, willing to share power, oppose colonialism/imperialism, promote democracy, and set up a rule based system of international free trade and relations. Absolute poverty fell from >80% of the world population after WW2 to <10% today, much of that happening after the fall of the Soviets.

You can find a nearly endless list of American hypocrisy and failures, but that list pales before American progress and freedom.

Unfortunately the current loudest cultural zeitgeist in the US is about self-flagellation and a revisionist history where America is evil through and through, since before its founding. Unfortunately even the loud right counter-culture agrees with the new zeitgeist that the US is unredeemable and not worth saving. America is on a self-hating path to cede hegemony to China in act of self-destructive contrition and apathy.

[LongShortLong]

I might have you confused with SumJongGuy about the Nazi thing, but blame China for China and blame Russia for Russia, OK? They have agency.

And let's all quit throwing in a negative or caveat about America every fucking time we open our mouths about world affairs.
America is fucking cool. Anything you want we got it right here in the USA. We won the World War Two to establish hegemony. We didn't fucking steal it.

You may have - I'm rather hawkish on the whole Russia-Ukraine thing. I don't see imperialism as a reasonable option, though if the world's going that way I've said before the US should grab a chunk of Russia, er West Alaska.

And I called both Russian and China governments bad. I think the US is great, and could be better. Russia and China suck, and rather than encourage democratic progress the US has enabled their autocracies. We should stop enabling them. Our bankers and real estate moguls and political consultants wanted that sweet Russian cash so we looked the other way on their corruption and slide to autocracy. The idea that oppressive regimes will collapse and democracy will prevail on its own is a bad idea we've used to support our enabling behaviors.

Even now, we are too complacent about Ukraine, not to mention Georgia, both places Russia's invaded. Let's make a stand for the post WW2 world order we helped create.

Now I could buy an argument that we expect the other democracies to wake up and shoulder more of the load. E.g. Maybe Europe should lead on European problems, and US be the team player. But that's not the argument, there's no public statements saying so.

[rod9301]

I asked rod this question in December and March, and he was too pussy to answer it both times. I'm asking again. Valid peace treaty terms according to you, right?

@rod9301

Rod is originally Romanian for those who don't know

This already happened. Soviet union invaded Moldova in 1940( may be wrong about the exact year).
At the time Moldova was part of Romania.
Life went on. Would it have been better if Romania declared war on the Soviet union and many people have died?
Sometimes you have to be pragmatic when you have a high neighbor.

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[Bunion 2020]

Funnez^^^

[jono]

Best you can recall, rod, Romania was invaded in part but then stayed neutral for the rest of WWII and everyone survived. Is that right?

[From_the_NEK]

Every 10 days, Rod comes back to this thread and stirs everyone up using the same "I'm just asking questions" style of bullshit that Tucker Carlson uses. PLEASE STOP REPLYING TO THE TROLL!

[grinch]

Thats all he has after his gazprom invesrments evaporated. Brilliant investment strategy. Zero chedda for comrod

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[Harry]

Best you can recall, rod, Romania was invaded in part but then stayed neutral for the rest of WWII and everyone survived. Is that right?

My Dad bombed the fuck out of Romania. Tree-top level raid right into an oil refinery.

9th Air Force based in Benghazi.





https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tidal_Wave




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[summit]

^Harry. wow. Ploesti (Tidalwave) was a rough and bloody. My grandfather was a B-17 instructor and test pilot (flew ELINT missions, the YB-40, and later the B-29)

This already happened. Soviet union invaded Moldova in 1940( may be wrong about the exact year).
At the time Moldova was part of Romania.
Life went on. Would it have been better if Romania declared war on the Soviet union and many people have died?
Sometimes you have to be pragmatic when you have a high neighbor.

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

You cannot possibly be so ignorant of your own history (and if so, it reinforces that your opinions are of no value). 1944/1947 is a shit comparison.

Romania 1939-1989 in one paragraph:

Your (former) country, was run by a pro-fascist king who was replaced by a fascist puppet king. Romania enthusiastically joined with the Nazis (signed the Tripartite Pact), participated in the Holocaust, and invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941 with Romanian armies of a million men. 3 years later when Romania was losing and Soviets successfully pushed Romanian armies back into Romania in late 1944, only then did Romania have a coup and "switch sides" and started fighting the Germans. Romania was trying to avoid being dominated by being "pragmatic," but had already laid their own fate. When the war ended, the Allies accurately called Romania an "ally of Hitlerite Germany" and the Soviets were already occupying the entire country aided by commie collaborators. Romania's non-resistance to the Soviets at that point was not Romania being pragmatic; it was fait accompli, and Romania was enslaved for over 40 years more until they executed the Ceausescus.

It is not comparable to the current situation in Ukraine nor the hypothetical I posed to you in the current day. Would you still say the right thing to do would be to surrender in that circumstance? Do you believe in peace at any price? Or is there somewhere a line in the sand that is worth fighting over?

[MultiVerse]

Communist nostalgia among Eastern Europeans (and among Russians) is a thing. Longing for the past is part of the human condition. The West views the Soviet System as a giant prison camp of communist repression but the communists were very good at indoctrinating and transmitting socialist beliefs to the population at large. Recently in another thread, for example, OldGoat talks about his grandfather who remained a committed socialist throughout his life in terms of his belief system even though in actuality he thrived as a capitalist in America. Despite the contradictions, that's not at all uncommon.

[subtle plague]

Communist nostalgia among Eastern Europeans (and among Russians) is a thing. Longing for the past is part of the human condition. The West views the Soviet System as a giant prison camp of communist repression but the communists were very good at indoctrinating and transmitting socialist beliefs to the population at large. Recently in another thread, for example, OldGoat talks about his grandfather who remained a committed socialist throughout his life in terms of his belief system, even though in actuality he thrived as a capitalist in America.

Yeah I fondly remember when hitler built our Autobahn......

I don't really understand that nostalgia. We have that in eastern Germany a lot where the Generation 50+ still thinks the GDR was a place of unicorns and rainbows instead of a totalitarian Regime.

[summit]

The Soviets worked extraordinarily hard to present their oppressive starving gulag system as a socialist paradise. They relied heavily on all the starry eyed useful idiots in the West, many in academia and the press, many whom they funded, secretly or not. They WANTED to believe. This was so from the inception of USSR onwards.

The Holodomor was mostly rumor because you could get shot for reporting on it. USSR proclaimed itself a land of plenty while tens of millions were starving, intentionally, by the state.

Same with the gulags... USSR proclaimed itself a land of liberated workers while 10s of millions suffered slavery, horrific living conditions, oppression, absolute brutality, and death. When Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn published the Gulag Archipelago, he was disparaged as a fraud by USSR apologists and useful idiots. The Russian propaganda machine was incredibly strong and its legacy survives in the collective social memory... and the current Russian tradition.

The Japanese still largely refuse to acknowledge many WWII atrocities while promoting a misbelief that the US triggered the war. Very cultural...

At least the Germans did a remarkably good job of expunging Nazi admiration from their culture and continued it after the occupation ended.

[leroy jenkins]

Communist nostalgia among Eastern Europeans (and among Russians) is a thing. Longing for the past is part of the human condition. The West views the Soviet System as a giant prison camp of communist repression but the communists were very good at indoctrinating and transmitting socialist beliefs to the population at large. Recently in another thread, for example, OldGoat talks about his grandfather who remained a committed socialist throughout his life in terms of his belief system even though in actuality he thrived as a capitalist in America. Despite the contradictions, that's not at all uncommon.

I met the strangest person recently. Fairly hot super woke 24 year old blonde chick born in russia raised in the us.

She actually said that the USSR was good because it was less patriarchal than the USA. Thats her only lens to view value through, the patriarchy. She said the USSR ended bride kidnapping in Kazakhstan so they're less patriarchal. Also admitted the KGB killed her dad and grandpa but still she pined for stalins firm hand in her life. Nevermind the USSR had no female leaders and the US does, nevermind fucking everything. She probably says stalins name in bed with her strapon wielding lesbian friends.

[Casey E]

In my experience, most westerners under 40 or so do not have a clear idea of what the Soviet Union was. Or what the political system in China is. Or what WWII was about and who was with who. It is astonishing.

[summit]

In my experience, most westerners under 40 or so do not have a clear idea of what the Soviet Union was. Or what the political system in China is. Or what WWII was about and who was with who. It is astonishing.

100% a choice by the educational system to deemphasize these topics. I don't understand it. I think it falls under into discussion of these topics glorifies the West either by deed or comparison and this runs counter to the narrative and focus on failures and crimes of the West that has been been a major emphasis of Western educational curricula for the last 30 years.

This is somewhat driven by the fact that western teachers are mostly female (not new) and almost exclusively liberal (this is new). These demographic groups put low value on discussing war in any respect that could be construed as a positive light (to include "right vs wrong") and are prone to being sympathetic to socialism as they imagine it, certainly adverse to disparaging it.

I remember in 1996 my middle school world history textbook had a total of 4 pages on WWII and 6 additional pages on how awful the atom bombs (and thus the US) were. We learned all about the Russian Czars and literally nothing about the USSR.

[MultiVerse]

Fairly hot super woke 24 year old blonde chick born in russia raised in the us.

Also admitted the KGB killed her dad and grandpa but still she pined for stalins firm hand in her life.

On 3 December 1991, the KGB was officially dissolved. So if she's 24 then the KGB could not have killed her father.

This works both ways. A large section of middle-class and well-off Americans suffer from Russia & Hungary envy—authoritarian, centralized and "powerful." As with communism, toxic utopian idiots think they can make totalitarianism work to reign in the various groups in America that they dislike.

[mcski]

From afar, the accomplishments and growth of China is impress and alluring. But there is a huge cost that gets overlooked from that distance.

[MultiVerse]

Unless they change course, we've probably seen peak economic China. A lot of their growth came from industrializing & liberalizing, which is now becoming undone by Xi's policies.

[summit]

^And the US supporting their growth through favored economic relationships, unbalanced trade, tolerance of IP violation, and one-sided technology transfers. We are now actively trying to untangle, divest, and diversify supply chains.

China will sink or swim on whether they can pivot to middle class growth to consume the productive capacity they have grown... or they can waste it on their military and party elite like most totalitarians do.

[highangle]

The Soviets worked extraordinarily hard to present their oppressive starving gulag system as a socialist paradise. They relied heavily on all the starry eyed useful idiots in the West, many in academia and the press, many whom they funded, secretly or not. They WANTED to believe. This was so from the inception of USSR onwards.

The Holodomor was mostly rumor because you could get shot for reporting on it. USSR proclaimed itself a land of plenty while tens of millions were starving, intentionally, by the state.

Same with the gulags... USSR proclaimed itself a land of liberated workers while 10s of millions suffered slavery, horrific living conditions, oppression, absolute brutality, and death. When Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn published the Gulag Archipelago, he was disparaged as a fraud by USSR apologists and useful idiots. The Russian propaganda machine was incredibly strong and its legacy survives in the collective social memory... and the current Russian tradition.

The Japanese still largely refuse to acknowledge many WWII atrocities while promoting a misbelief that the US triggered the war. Very cultural...

At least the Germans did a remarkably good job of expunging Nazi admiration from their culture and continued it after the occupation ended.

Fascism was never defeated in the intellectual arena, nor did it go bankrupt in the marketplace of ideas. It had to be firebombed.
It's easy to go undefeated if you reject truth and logic at the outset, and say your ignorance and feelings are the same as, nay superior to, factual reality.

...President Trump continues to defend his now four-day old assertion that Alabama was once in the projected path of Hurricane Dorian. In a new tweet Thursday morning, the President insisted "Alabama was going to be hit or grazed, and then Hurricane Dorian took a different path." The President then lashed out at the news media saying "The Fake News knows this very well. That's why they're the Fake News!"...

The Rodbot is here as part of an overall effort to give the Con0s and Leroy MTTs among us an alternate reality in which their ignorances and feelings [ie Pavlovian conditioning] are superior to our common realities. 911, then climate change were the testbeds for the New Propaganda...

The press has to sell clicks to keep the lights on, so they're not really an ally against Putin-strain postmodern nihilism and the Assault on Truth... "Is the earth flat? Let's hear both sides"


So now the nominally constructive and creative forces on the planet have to depress that muzzle and blast it back before masturbating to Q and letting the higher-ups do all the thinking reaches pandemic status.

[dunfree]

In my experience, most westerners under 40 or so do not have a clear idea of what the Soviet Union was. Or what the political system in China is. Or what WWII was about and who was with who. It is astonishing.

Do adults over 40 in the west? At anything but the most basic level that’s college coursework and probably touches on some touchy subjects people don’t like, with complex judgements to be made like on the role & rights of women and the difference between theory bromides and practice. Even the notion of the USSR as colonial power is objectionable to some.

[LongShortLong]

Do adults over 40 in the west? At anything but the most basic level that’s college coursework and probably touches on some touchy subjects people don’t like, with complex judgements to be made like on the role & rights of women and the difference between theory bromides and practice. Even the notion of the USSR as colonial power is objectionable to some.

The colonialism lens is new to me. In my K-12, it was covered that the US was a colony, and the extent of the British Empire, and division of China, manifest destiny, Indian problem, Spanish Empire, etc. But this wasn't tied together under the colonialism as a means of governance. I don't remember learning of the US as a colonial power, but any intelligent person can see the parallels and teach themselves it was (and is a modern variant of same).

The soviet and Chinese political systems were covered, along with their famines and gulags and conquests. Domino theory was still a thing. Cuban missile crisis and nuclear diplomacy. Russia/China authoritarian nature and evils of such were covered in history and English classes. The Nazis were taught as evil Germans, though I remember thinking at the time - hey, they elected the Nazis and there's no reason that couldn't happen here. Ofc, back then we couldn't speak of Nazis or suggest authoritarianism was a potential internal threat...

Ofc the latest USSR doings were always in the news as well, along with summits and star wars and fallout shelters, etc.

But as I've aged, I've learned that I learned, and others either didn't, or forgot.

Bringing the colonialism idea back to Russia, and specifically Ukraine, the modern nation states have fought over who would colonize it. Both the Russians and Germans wanted to colonize Ukraine in WW1, and again in WW2, mainly as a food source to support their other national endeavors - Russia because their ag land sucks and Germany because warring armies need food. And now those pesky Ukrainians think they ought to rule themselves. The nerve!

[Cisco Kid]

When I was elementary there were 48 states to study and Russia was the evil empire that we prayed for their conversion to Jesus. Nobody liked Russia at all. Too many parents of disappeared American POW's maybe.

Meanwhile back at the front

[highangle]

Vlad Vexler brings up a cherished Russian self-image from a poem by Gogol* of a big heavy troika sled galloping by in the snowy night. Where is it going? No one knows.
This is how Russians see their government - as this big heavy thing careening from the fog toward an unlit unknown nobody can do anything about.

So you see how the environment is always just right for authoritarianism - democratic oversight and meaningful participation in government are for those who would jump on a galloping troika sled at significant risk to life & limb.


Ukrainians don't want that, never have.




* the derogatory Russian term for Ukrainians, "Hohol" comes from his name