Ukraine

[jono]

Yes, certainly the worlds largest wheat supplier couldn’t possibly come up with ways to attack these crops on their own.

It was threat defense and research. If you were trying to defend against future biological attacks, it might be safe to assume those sites had access to some of the weapons they were trying to protect against?

If by "weapons" you mean naturally occurring biological threats, then yes, I would assume so.

But you don't have to assume, you can actually look into it. There's a lot of data out there about specific diseases that were under research because they could be spread in the region by migratory animals, etc. It wasn't a secret.

Pro tip: if Google doesn't turn it up try duckduckgo or startpage.com or something that doesn't know your preferences.

[JimmyCarter]

If by "weapons" you mean naturally occurring biological threats, then yes, I would assume so.

But you don't have to assume, you can actually look into it. There's a lot of data out there about specific diseases that were under research because they could be spread in the region by migratory animals, etc. It wasn't a secret.

Pro tip: if Google doesn't turn it up try duckduckgo or startpage.com or something that doesn't know your preferences.

That’s cute.

So all of this information about known diseases being researched at these facilities is out there, yet it’s still quite concerning that the Russians could get it. This means we’ve either overhyped the threat or downplayed the research. Like Nuland almost wanted a layer of fear in there to justify more involvement.

[jono]

That’s cute.

So all of this information about known diseases being researched at these facilities is out there, yet it’s still quite concerning that the Russians could get it. This means we’ve either overhyped the threat or downplayed the research. Like Nuland almost wanted a layer of fear in there to justify more involvement.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. There's a difference between publicly saying exactly what we're doing and letting a bunch of Russian conscripts pack the research materials into washing machines and haul it through the fields.

One is information and one is physical material. Not that you asked.

[JimmyCarter]

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. There's a difference between publicly saying exactly what we're doing and letting a bunch of Russian conscripts pack the research materials into washing machines and haul it through the fields.

One is information and one is physical material. Not that you asked.

Yes, certainly there’s no other way for Russians to get these materials which they probably didn’t already have.

[Mazderati]

In life imitating art imitating life, it's Jimmy not Jerry and Nuland not Newman who are sworn enemies.

Nuland!!!

[ex-powderbroker]

Big Z invited McCarthy to come visit today.

[Toadman]

Ukr soldiers quoted as saying drone units have been decimated to the point of being ineffective.

I have no answers. Ukr is paying a high price. I do hope it is worth it and I hope we help get them the supplies they need.



Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk

Just wondering what the context is around this comment? Are the drone units losing lots of drones or operators or both?

I watched a Youtube video with one of the more effective drone operators that was saying they lose about 3 drones a day.

[MultiVerse]

This means we’ve either overhyped the threat or downplayed the research. Like Nuland almost wanted a layer of fear in there to justify more involvement.

You've got the arrow of causality backwards. Russia overhyped the threat which led to reports in the media and congressional testimony. The so called layer of fear came from the false Russian biolab story circulating among the U.S. far right:

Moscow notches a win in the information war

When a narrative takes hold on Fox News and is embraced by Tucker Carlson and Steve Bannon, Radnitz said, "then there's a symbiosis between Russian foreign policy objectives — pro-state narratives in Russia — and anti-government narratives in the U.S. that these far-right personalities are pushing mostly for profit and notoriety."

Since the invasion of Ukraine, Russian state media has regularly played clips from Carlson's Fox News show to validate the Russian government's statements and actions. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov went out of his way to praise the conservative news network last week after condemning Western media coverage of the invasion.

Source: https://www.npr.org/2022/03/25/10879...russia-ukraine

[uglymoney]

Just wondering what the context is around this comment? Are the drone units losing lots of drones or operators or both?

I watched a Youtube video with one of the more effective drone operators that was saying they lose about 3 drones a day.

They were saying the drones themselves. The order to withdraw the drone unit from Bahkmut is widely known, while the info about the drone shortage was an off the record interview with a soldier.

I recommend listening and not taking my word. I drive and listen at work between customers, distracted.


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[jono]

You've got the arrow of causality backwards. Russia overhyped the threat which led to reports in the media and congressional testimony. The so called layer of fear came from the false Russian biolab story circulating among the U.S. far right:

Moscow notches a win in the information war

When a narrative takes hold on Fox News and is embraced by Tucker Carlson and Steve Bannon, Radnitz said, "then there's a symbiosis between Russian foreign policy objectives — pro-state narratives in Russia — and anti-government narratives in the U.S. that these far-right personalities are pushing mostly for profit and notoriety. "

It's not just the right, Russia pushed that narrative to all their tankies. It was a pivotal moment for Tulsi, too.

[Casey E]

A quick search on RT came up with



Fox pulling their weight for the Putin/Trump ticket

[J. Barron DeJong]

Hey look! Another stinking pile of crap served by NYTimes. Unnamed officials, speculations, and no evidence. Color me an Iraq skeptic, and we had named officials, speculations, and the flimsiest of evidence for that stinker.

Since we're speculating here, I'm gonna speculate. Various officials requested that various scenarios be investigated. This is the scenario to investigate "Ukrainians dun it." Those investigating collected every scrap of evidence, non-evidence and other thin gruel, and wrote a report.

The first paragraph of this report basically says - we were asked to investigate this, and this is all the shit we could find. We didn't really find anything, though there are loose ends that could be further investigated. Our confidence in this report's contents is less than "low confidence."

And now we have the NYT writing about some unnamed official who read that crap report. This is why I don't subscribe.

Not just NYT, and not just US investigators:



https://www.zeit.de/zustimmung?url=h...raine-anschlag

I wouldn’t say case closed, but seems valid.

[JimmyCarter]

You've got the arrow of causality backwards. Russia overhyped the threat which led to reports in the media and congressional testimony. The so called layer of fear came from the false Russian biolab story circulating among the U.S. far right:

Moscow notches a win in the information war

When a narrative takes hold on Fox News and is embraced by Tucker Carlson and Steve Bannon, Radnitz said, "then there's a symbiosis between Russian foreign policy objectives — pro-state narratives in Russia — and anti-government narratives in the U.S. that these far-right personalities are pushing mostly for profit and notoriety."

Since the invasion of Ukraine, Russian state media has regularly played clips from Carlson's Fox News show to validate the Russian government's statements and actions. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov went out of his way to praise the conservative news network last week after condemning Western media coverage of the invasion.

Source: https://www.npr.org/2022/03/25/10879...russia-ukraine

So it was never a big threat right? But Nuland didn’t really play it like that did she? Never let a crisis go to waste.

[MultiVerse]

I wouldn’t say case closed, but seems valid.

When you say valid it's important to establish what that means. Valid means an operation might have been conducted off the books by anti-Russian pro-Ukrainian partisans. LongShortLong is right in the sense this was almost certainly leaked to the NYT and in Germany in response to the Hersh horseshit. Since Russia has fully embraced the Hersh narrative, it will be amusing to watch how the Kremlin and its supporters spin this story.

[MultiVerse]

So it was never a big threat right? But Nuland didn’t really play it like that did she? Never let a crisis go to waste.

You're being obtuse. Nuland was clumsy and stumbled during her testimony, that's all:

Another key moment for the spread of the false bioweapon narrative came during the testimony of Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee earlier this month.

Under questioning by Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., Nuland affirmed that Ukraine has "biological research facilities" and that the U.S. is concerned that Russian forces may seek to gain control of them. Almost immediately afterward, Nuland also stated, "There is no doubt in my mind" that if a biological weapon is used in Ukraine, it would be the work of Russia, not Ukraine or its allies.

But Fox News' Carlson then cited Nuland's testimony to air the conspiracy theory on his cable show.

[Toadman]

Big Z invited McCarthy to come visit today.

Little K turned down the offer. He went on to bash Biden about Ukraine and talked about no blank checks for Ukraine. One would think that little no balls Kevin would want to see what our taxpayer money was buying in Ukraine.

[JimmyCarter]

You're being obtuse. Nuland was clumsy and stumbled during her testimony, that's all:

Another key moment for the spread of the false bioweapon narrative came during the testimony of Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee earlier this month.

Under questioning by Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., Nuland affirmed that Ukraine has "biological research facilities" and that the U.S. is concerned that Russian forces may seek to gain control of them. Almost immediately afterward, Nuland also stated, "There is no doubt in my mind" that if a biological weapon is used in Ukraine, it would be the work of Russia, not Ukraine or its allies.

But Fox News' Carlson then cited Nuland's testimony to air the conspiracy theory on his cable show.

Those were responses to two separate questions (I linked the transcript earlier)and I’m not even talking about the second one (which was a direct acknowledgment that the bioweapons angle was Russian propaganda)

I am not saying these were bioweapons, I’m saying she framed her response specifically to NOT downplay the threat.

[ötzi]

Let's say you're 100% correct. So what?

[jono]

Memba when she warned us about all the Ukrainian bioweapon facilities we needed to protect?

Just take the L and reassess your news feed. This doubling down is beneath you.

[MultiVerse]

I am not saying these were bioweapons, I’m saying she framed her response specifically to NOT downplay the threat.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Will you consider the possibility you're placing too much weight on the statements of a mid-level bureaucrat .She's just the Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs after all, right? As in if her testimony hadn't played on repeat on Fox news it wouldn't matter because substantively spinning her testimony amounts to conspiracy mongering.

[ötzi]

It certainly doesn't rise to the level of, oh, WMD.

[bennymac]

can we send proxy thoughts and prayers - is that cheaper?

[J. Barron DeJong]

When you say valid it's important to establish what that means. Valid means an operation might have been conducted off the books by anti-Russian pro-Ukrainian partisans. LongShortLong is right in the sense this was almost certainly leaked to the NYT and in Germany in response to the Hersh horseshit. Since Russia has fully embraced the Hersh narrative, it will be amusing to watch how the Kremlin and its supporters spin this story.

I guess by valid I mean shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. It’s one thing to have US officials leaking to a US paper, but having another state and another paper report the same is exponentially more difficult to coordinate.

But the reporting is thin, so seems like a theory that should be considered as valid at this point, but not the definitive answer on whodunnit.

[MultiVerse]

Right, but consider how so far Berlin's response to the revelation has been undramatic. German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius warned against reaching premature conclusions on who was responsible for blowing up the Nord Stream pipelines, suggesting the attack could also have been a ‘false flag’ operation to blame Ukraine.

In other words, the Germans haven't blinked yet.

Also can we talk about how shoddy they were? I bet the perpetrators didn't even get their deposit for the boat rental back: "The yacht was subsequently returned to the owner uncleaned, and investigators were able to find traces of explosives on the table in the cabin, according to the detailed report."

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2023-03-08/
https://news.yahoo.com/german-prosec...122224381.html

[JimmyCarter]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Will you consider the possibility you're placing too much weight on the statements of a mid-level bureaucrat . She's just the Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs after all, right?

Mid-level bureaucrat? Yikes.

I agree with defending Ukraine from the invaders, but I don’t think we as a country would actually end it there (hence proxy war), hence my misgivings about it. Having a war against Russia wherein we don’t actually have to deploy troops, and it’s justified because of the invasion, is a neocon wet dream and those are the kinds of people calling a lot of the shots.

They smell blood in the water and no way they get an opportunity like this again so I think the push is actually to destroy Russia. Again, I think Russia is shitty and that outcome isn’t a bad thing, I just don’t like pretending this isn’t the case and this is all just us being the good guys.

We rightfully won’t allow a Russian victory

Zelensky says that negotiations are the way out, but I don’t see that happening without some dominating offensive wins, nor do I think the US will actually go along with it. Hell the messaging here is already very “all or nothing” regarding the territories in question.

The only way out is for Putin to withdraw, which he knows is effectively signing his own death sentence and I can’t imagine there’s anyone who thinks this outcome has any basis in reality.

This means either Russia goes down thanks to Ukraine (yay) or we end up with boots on the ground (boo) until they do. The first scenario would be great, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that it’s remotely viable. The second scenario runs the added risk of nuclear war. And I know people in here say nuclear war isn’t really a risk, but nuclear war is actually the main justification for the avoidance of direct war against a nuclear power, so why don’t we just declare war now and get it over with?