Fuck Vail! Here's how.

[skiJ]

speculating, I believe VR could move staff in 48-72 hours to cover a strike, and in 30days have a plan to replace striking patrollers
( I would not be surprised if that plan already exists )

responding to a post up-thread, And borrowing a phrase,
" skiing is the easy part "

it applies for patrolling Too.

good luck -
There are lots of people in emergency (medical) services that don't make anywhere near a living wage
( I am not sure ski patrol is the place to start this fight )

talk to a rural EMT -
for many, it is like ( or part of ) being a volunteer firefighter.

And I will echo skepticism of the union
( I believe in the concept of collective bargaining ;
implementation and operation has become just another dysfunctional bureaucracy
( our contract would be 'settled', just as it expired, and union representation would claim to spend the next two years "negotiating" the term staff were working without.
at one point we worked four years on an expired contract ( I have heard longer for others ) )

VR has this covered ( sorry )


skiJ

[powdork]

speculating, I believe VR could move staff in 48-72 hours to cover a strike, and in 30days have a plan to replace striking patrollers
( I would not be surprised if that plan already exists )

responding to a post up-thread, And borrowing a phrase,
" skiing is the easy part "

it applies for patrolling Too.

good luck -
There are lots of people in emergency (medical) services that don't make anywhere near a living wage
( I am not sure ski patrol is the place to start this fight )

talk to a rural EMT -
for many, it is like ( or part of ) being a volunteer firefighter.

And I will echo skepticism of the union
( I believe in the concept of collective bargaining ;
implementation and operation has become just another dysfunctional bureaucracy
( our contract would be 'settled', just as it expired, and union representation would claim to spend the next two years "negotiating" the term staff were working without.
at one point we worked four years on an expired contract ( I have heard longer for others ) )

VR has this covered ( sorry )


skiJ

Yes but most rural emt's don't have to pay ski town living expenses.
For me it's pretty simple. It's Vail vs the Ski Patrol and this is what the Ski Patrol is asking for

[XavierD]

speculating, I believe VR could move staff in 48-72 hours to cover a strike, and in 30days have a plan to replace striking patrollers
( I would not be surprised if that plan already exists )

responding to a post up-thread, And borrowing a phrase,
" skiing is the easy part "

it applies for patrolling Too.

good luck -
There are lots of people in emergency (medical) services that don't make anywhere near a living wage
( I am not sure ski patrol is the place to start this fight )

talk to a rural EMT -
for many, it is like ( or part of ) being a volunteer firefighter.

And I will echo skepticism of the union
( I believe in the concept of collective bargaining ;
implementation and operation has become just another dysfunctional bureaucracy
( our contract would be 'settled', just as it expired, and union representation would claim to spend the next two years "negotiating" the term staff were working without.
at one point we worked four years on an expired contract ( I have heard longer for others ) )

VR has this covered ( sorry )


skiJ

I seriously doubt they could replace the ski patrol.

[Bunion 2020]

It depends on how badly they wanted to. Not sure if the Patrol at Stevens is EMTs, if so its not going to be easy to replace them just because of how slowly most State EMS agencies move slowly when certifying out of state licenses. Many States grant reciprocity, many do not.

And aside from the denizens of TGR, most skiing public would be outraged by such a move.

There are lots of people in emergency (medical) services that don't make anywhere near a living wage
( I am not sure ski patrol is the place to start this fight )

Ski Patrols vary, a place like Stevens with a real AC program is not the place to bring in a bunch of skiing medics and think they will provide the coverage required. And the USFS may not allow the resort to operate with what they consider an unqualified staff.

[funkendrenchman]

I seriously doubt they could replace the ski patrol.

They store extra ski patrol with the moguls.

[RegCT]

^^^ Pretty easy to get sick.

With what sick days BAHA! I kid I kid, just a little bargaining humor…and I bet they have sick days, and additional c19 sick days.

The National Labor Relations Act requires that both parties, the employee and the employer, negotiate and act in good faith during the bargaining process. While employees are protected from being terminated for organizing, they still have to show up to work and do a good job and not be an asshole.

An employer by this stage in the process is more diligent than ever documenting every single little handbook violation of every employee, down to a missing name tag or in your example calling in sick too many times, and can legally use that information to justify firing an employee.


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[Bunion 2020]

Or they can do like they did with Pat R and Tim G and just not hire them back in the 1st place.

[doebedoe]

... not the place to bring in a bunch of skiing medics and think they will provide the coverage required. And the USFS may not allow the resort to operate with what they consider an unqualified staff.

All of this. A bunch of skiing medics won't be able to pull toboggans down much of stevens, let alone run an AC program. I can't imagine FS would allow continued operations. All places have to submit and adhere to a patrol plan which is approved by the USFS.

[SumJongGuy]

The air traffic controllers thought they weren't easily replaced too.. No way the FAA would allow air travel to continue with 80% brand new controllers right??

[skiJ]

guys -

Many of you know better than I -

I guarantee VR can have a dozen patrollers in PC in 48 hours - Vail, Summit county, ...
VR has patrollers.

a 'living wage' for ski patrolling in PC (?)
good luck with that.
( Ski Corp.s don't pay a 'living wage' for seasonal labor. )

With Full Respect to the ski patrol Pro.s, those who can make it their Occupation are very few.

Vail v. Ski Patrol (?) no. although I have heard VR has disband some volunteer Patrols ;
This may be PCPSP v. VR --

I support ski patrol ;
I believe in collective bargaining though I believe what is left of it is Broken
( see. 'Right to Work' ) ;

I'm empathetic. And
current union(s) are not the answer.
But go through the process -

I am amazed the GoFundMe has raised as much as it has.

final thought,
pretty-sure I read about this in March -
those who signed-on for 21/22 need to ride-it-out.
A Strike is not an appropriate action because one wants to be paid more than one agreed to work for.
Safety. level of staffing.
Not wages.

Good luck.
I support the patroller. and
I believe in collective bargaining.

Union(s) and Strikes - not so much.

Good luck. skiJ

[californiagrown]

All of this. A bunch of skiing medics won't be able to pull toboggans down much of stevens, let alone run an AC program. I can't imagine FS would allow continued operations. All places have to submit and adhere to a patrol plan which is approved by the USFS.

Lol. What is gods name gives you the idea that Fail Resorts gives two wet fucks about opening expert terrain, hike-to terrain, or anything steep on storm days at a resort known (only locally) for damp, dank snowboarders?

theyll just give a couple guys some charges and tell them to blow the fuck out of anything that could slide onto the groomers. And if there is ANY question about stability, they will simply not open that terrain or lift. Just have two competent pro-patrol, and a bunch of gaping pugetopolis volly patrol (made up of Drs, nurses, emts) to man the groomers. They have already proven they find it acceptable to not open terrain, and understaff the mountain.

The folks that rip and hike, and slay steep, deep gnar in bounds arent the ones renting skis, and buying lunch for the whole family so why would Fail Resorts care about catering to them? They want the amazon/google/microsoft gaper family money, and with Epic passes so damn cheap compared to day tickets, folks will keep buying. Not the "core" crowd, but i bet the folks who ski 3 weekends a year with one of them at a Fail Resort destination resort will still make the purchase....

[doebedoe]

...
I support the patroller. and
I believe in collective bargaining.

Union(s) and Strikes - not so much.
...

So you support the idea of collective bargaining, just not the institutions and tools of organized labor that have gotten results for centuries.

Got it.

[detrusor]

After watching a toboggan run free the length of thaynes lift maybe it would be fine?

Glad no one was killed


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[skiJ]

' centuries' (?)

Your knowledge of history is better than mine, and your faith is better than my experience
( paid dues for more than a decade in what is now a 'Right to Work' state )

You are correct - I do not believe in the Unions that became bloated and dysfunctuonal and that included tools including violence and mayhem.

"centuries" ?
in my world "centuries" is more than two hundred years .

PCPSP needs a great Director and a lawyer that can show VR their patrollers deserve to be paid more.
I don't see a Union being the solution.

"living wage" in Park City ?
Maybe when I was there in 1986
( a Cool old mining town. on its way to becoming Park City, home of PCMR and Deer Valley ( recently opened ))

"living wage" in Park City in 2022 and beyond (?)
ain't gonna happen again in my lifetime.
Not for rank-and-file patroller.

Go ! get 'em !


skiJ

[SumJongGuy]

guys -

Many of you know better than I -

I guarantee VR can have a dozen patrollers in PC in 48 hours - Vail, Summit county, ...
VR has patrollers.

I also support workers rights and especially collective bargaining. Is Colorado a "right to work" AKA collective bargaining illegal state?

Until right to work is overturned everywhere unions are screwed. VR has many MANY feeder hills with patrol staff who might be cajoled in to crossing the picket line at the mothership inorder to keep from losing their feeder hill gig benefits, especially the family passes.. I don't see them being forced to move there but perhaps some free slopeside accommodations to work there for a week offered to all those feeder hill patrols might help the mother ship staff the big mountain.

[eSock]

' centuries' (?)

Your knowledge of history is better than mine, and your faith is better than my experience
( paid dues for more than a decade in what is now a 'Right to Work' state )

You are correct - I do not believe in the Unions that became bloated and dysfunctuonal and that included tools including violence and mayhem.

"centuries" ?
in my world "centuries" is more than two hundred years .

PCPSP needs a great Director and a lawyer that can show VR their patrollers deserve to be paid more.
I don't see a Union being the solution.

"living wage" in Park City ?
Maybe when I was there in 1986
( a Cool old mining town. on its way to becoming Park City, home of PCMR and Deer Valley ( recently opened ))

"living wage" in Park City in 2022 and beyond (?)
ain't gonna happen again in my lifetime.
Not for rank-and-file patroller.

Go ! get 'em !


skiJ

just curious since you have a really unique writing style, are you dictating to a program or a former/current lawyer perhaps?

[RegCT]

Well it was a civil discussion until the mob decided to chime in.


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[SumJongGuy]

Well it was a civil discussion until the mob decided to chime in. ..
with the thread title..


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Fixed? Didn't start off exactly objective LOL!

[telefreewasatch]

Totally agree with skiJ.
Been trolling in the LCC 42 years at both areas and been anti union since the idea first came up.
It'd ruin the lifestyle.
And that's what patrolling is.
It's a lifestyle that doesn't pay well but the benefits aren't measured in dollars.
And one is not beholding to anyone, let alone a fucking union.
If one wants more money, go do something else.
It's possible to raise a family and retire as a troller.
Tough, but possible.
Done it.
So for all you non patrollers weighing in: STFU.
No idea what you are talking about.
Wait 'til I have a shot and a beer and tell you what I really think...

[DanoT]

Lol. What is gods name gives you the idea that Fail Resorts gives two wet fucks about opening expert terrain, hike-to terrain, or anything steep on storm days at a resort known (only locally) for damp, dank snowboarders?

theyll just give a couple guys some charges and tell them to blow the fuck out of anything that could slide onto the groomers. And if there is ANY question about stability, they will simply not open that terrain or lift. Just have two competent pro-patrol, and a bunch of gaping pugetopolis volly patrol (made up of Drs, nurses, emts) to man the groomers. They have already proven they find it acceptable to not open terrain, and understaff the mountain.

The folks that rip and hike, and slay steep, deep gnar in bounds arent the ones renting skis, and buying lunch for the whole family so why would Fail Resorts care about catering to them? They want the amazon/google/microsoft gaper family money, and with Epic passes so damn cheap compared to day tickets, folks will keep buying. Not the "core" crowd, but i bet the folks who ski 3 weekends a year with one of them at a Fail Resort destination resort will still make the purchase....

^^^This. A patroller strike or call in sick campaign just forces/gives Vail an excuse to shut down lifts and terrain. And they will certain cater to the bulk of their customers, the families with intermediates and keep the low angle runs open.

[doebedoe]

...
It's possible to raise a family and retire as a troller.
Tough, but possible.
Done it.
So for all you non patrollers weighing in: STFU.
No idea what you are talking about.
Wait 'til I have a shot and a beer and tell you what I really think...

According to the patrollers I patrol with who are 20-30 years younger than someone like you who is retired -- no it fuckin' ain't possible anymore to have a family and retire on. Not without a pretty damn well paying side gig...and so then it's not trollin' that you retired from. It's something that actually made fair money.

But what do i know -- I just drink shots and beer with them.

[telefreewasatch]

According to the patrollers I patrol with who are 20-30 years younger than someone like you who is retired -- no it fuckin' ain't possible anymore to have a family and retire on. Not without a pretty damn well paying side gig...and so then it's not trollin' that you retired from. It's something that actually made fair money.

But what do i know -- I just drink shots and beer with them.

Now that I've had a beer, I'll say you don't know shit.
Did they use cloth diapers?
Shop at thrift stores?
Not go out to eat?
Not go to concerts, etc?
Grow a lot of their own food?
Drive cars that cost $4,000 or less?
Caretake some rich guys VRBO rental?
The list goes on how to make it work.
We raised a family in employee housing for 20 and care took someone else's place for another 10 years. Kids lived in bunks in a 5'x12' closet for 20 years. No complaints from them to grow up at Snowbird. The savings on rent and utilities were a big part of our success.
Lotta sacrifices, sure.

Biggest difference now is the price of real estate and trying to own a piece of the USA.
Got me on that one with how to make that work these days.
Retired? Not exactly. Just saying I don't need to work.
I still fill in when needed, making class 4 avalanches and skiing powder in closed areas the last ten days. Still enjoying the lifestyle.
One does need to work at some bullshit good paying summer jobs for 10-12 years to get money ahead, least I did.

[Buster Highmen]

Biggest difference now is the price of real estate and trying to own a piece of the USA.
Got me on that one with how to make that work these days..

Does the argument need more than 1 exception, that particular big one?

The financial gradient has gotten too steep. The pro patroller scene is just one theatre.

[skiJ]

(( tfw did not say he is retired -
" been doing it 42 years "

May work eighty hours a week Summers and Bank.
May live a frugal lifestyle ( almost certainly )

If you expenses are managable and you grow 70% of your diet, and you avoid restaurants...

it /// there are ways...

Just go easy on the beer and alcohol.


skiJ

[skiJ]

Now that I've had a beer, I'll say you don't know shit.
Did they use cloth diapers?
Shop at thrift stores?
Not go out to eat?
Not go to concerts, etc?
Grow a lot of their own food?
Drive cars that cost $4,000 or less?
Caretake some rich guys VRBO rental?
The list goes on how to make it work.
We raised a family in employee housing for 20 and care took someone else's place for another 10 years. Kids lived in bunks in a 5'x12' closet for 20 years. No complaints from them to grow up at Snowbird. The savings on rent and utilities were a big part of our success.
Lotta sacrifices, sure.

Biggest difference now is the price of real estate and trying to own a piece of the USA.
Got me on that one with how to make that work these days.
Retired? Not exactly. Just saying I don't need to work.
I still fill in when needed, making class 4 avalanches and skiing powder in closed areas the last ten days. Still enjoying the lifestyle.
One does need to work at some bullshit good paying summer jobs for 10-12 years to get money ahead, least I did.

Thank you. skiJ