150g vs 200g Tech Bindings

[galibier_numero_un]

I have spent the most time on Dynafit Comfort/Verticals (i.e. 10 years worth), but last season I mixed it up between Speed Radicals, Kreuzspitze GT 1.0 heels (with orig TLT toes), and Trab TR Race.

I think they all ski fine, and the Kreuzspitze probably skis better than the Speed Radical. The GT is such an amazing binding when you consider the adjustable vertical and horizontal release, low stack height, ability to add an adjustment plate, and multiple heel riser options + flat. I typically tour on them spun 180 which is equivalent in height to race bindings with a pin flap. For long flat sections I will turn them 90 for flat mode but never do it for a simple laps skinning. They are also easy to step into because the heel pins can spin. If I could only have 1 binding for the rest of my life (out of what I've skied) it would be the GT. The difference in weight compared to a race binding isn't that significant but the options/benefits are a lot. Mine are on inserts and I can put them on my wife's skis but turn down the release values, etc.

The TR Race has flat and flap heights, skis well, and is lighter but I'd take the GT over it except for my lightest skis.

^^^ all of this (and more) ^^^

OP - start by creating a short list of your requirements. Everyone's list is different (doh!).

One thing I will not compromise on is infinitely adjustable release in both X and Y axes. I have good buddies who are fine with fixed 10 or 12 vertical, but I figure I've been pretty successful to this point, in spite of doing some silly things in my younger years. In college, I thought it was cool to use non-releasable turntable heels with long thongs (look it up - it's safe for work).

So, with this constraint alone (and for me - not everyone), the short list shrinks. I love the concept of a Salomon MTN, but I won't use it.

My short list for light bindings includes the Haute Route and the Kreutzespitz. Heavier up the line, there's the ATK Crest and RT10, and of course, for another 60-70 grams you get higher risers with the Raiders and Plum Guides.

Of course, something that I would think is non-negotiable for all of us, is a track record for durability (dependability in the field).

... Thom

[Jonathan S.]

^ re the 90-degree turn for the flat mode on racing bindings, yep, not something you want to be doing frequently. If you have a tour that starts off with a long truly nordic-esque approach, then no big deal to set it up that way at the trailhead, then eventually rotate it straight ahead once the pitch gets going. Otherwise, for intermittent stretches of flat terrain, no big deal to just leave it in the regular touring position if you have a highly tour-able boot (which is the only sensible pairing for a binding like this).

[gman321]

I wholeheartedly, 100% agree. Consider Lou Dawson's WS review of the venerable Salomon MTN/Atomic Backland binding. "Could the Atomic/Salomon Backland/MTN be the best tech binding ever made?" he asks? Maybe, but the reasons he gives don't seem to be very powerful: "In other words, Backland is simple, light, and just works." If that's what you're looking for, a race binding will be simpler, lighter, and it will also just work.

I think the only non-race bindings that make sense under 350g are gapless bindings like the Ski Trab Titan Vario.2, the G3 Zed, or the Market Alpinist. The benefit you get there is actual elasticity and consistent release while your ski is flexed (most of the time...) Of those three bindings, the Ski Trab Titan Vario.2 is clearly the best binding. The G3 Zed is too heavy, and the Market Alpinist is not very reliable from what I've heard. I went with the Vario.2 for my daily driver ski because I knew I would be skiing that ski in the most varied of conditions. So I wanted the add'l elasticity. And the Trab toe is very, very good.

If you're not going to get the Titan Vario.2, then I think it's most sensible to drop straight down to the 120-170g range. And I think those are all great bindings. First, I actually prefer a race-style heel. Fiddling with heel risers - or skinning behind someone who constantly does so - is a pet peeve of mine. I ski race bindings most days, and I never want for an extra riser height. I was talking about this with my ski partner just yesterday while on a steep uptrack. Set it and forget it. Sheesh!

The same goes for release value. I'm totally mystified why I need the ability to set release value between 4 and 13. I know my release value... it is approximately 8.5. Maybe it's a bit safer because you can stop thinking about the numbers (they aren't standard anyways) and just adjust the binding tighter if you're releasing too much (and then dial it down looser once you get injured). But since it's a tech binding anyways, I try to just err on the side of skiing conservatively and hoping I never come out of my binding.

Of the various race bindings under 170g, I don't think you can really go wrong these days. The Trab Gara Titan is the best because of the toe piece construction. The toe elasticity and independent wings are noticeable. Other than the Titan, I've skied the ATK Trofeo, which is totally bomber but hard to spin, and the Dynafit LTR, which has no flat mode (aka it sucks). Plum bindings are pretty comparable to ATK, and Skimoco have the Plum 150 for $390 right now, so that's a pretty good deal. I've heard Kreutzpitze are fine as well, but not spectacular. I'm also very intrigued by the Dynafit Superlite 150, but they are $550 and I don't see why you would get those over the Trab Gara Titan. I think I know of a used pair for cheaper if you're interested. PM me.

The bindings below 120g are not suitable for general ski touring use imo. They are super sick - I briefly had a pair of Plum 99s, and they are really well-engineered. The binding has tons of cut outs and careful shaping to minimize weight. But they are not as durable as the 120-170g bindings and sometimes they are less user friendly and just don't seem as bomber. Titanium u-springs are not worth it imo.

On the question of will you notice weight: I think you would notice 250g vs 150g. Also, cutting weight from your foot involves cutting weight from everything around your foot. So drop 100g from your binding, drop 300g from your boot, and drop 300g from your ski (looks like you dropped way, way more than that) and suddenly you're flying up the hill. It will legitimately feel magical. It also depends on your typical ski partners. When you use the ski in question, are you likely to be faster than your partners or slower than your partners? A quiver helps here, too. If you're faster than your partners on a given day, maybe you can take a heavier ski and binding combo. But if you got invited to hit some volcanoes with some local crushers, I bet you'll be happy to have a 150g (or less) binding with a 1300g ski.

To sum up, I like race bindings because they are simple, and they are bomber. IMHO - and I know I'm outside the norm - more features = more stuff to go wrong in any icy, wet, hard-wearing environment. I can't stand it when my ski partners' stop every 90 seconds to fiddle with something on their binding, and it would drive me crazy if I had to do that too. I would have almost zero confidence if I ever came out of my binding or something didn't seem to be working quite right (like a heel spring is wonky or the tower rotates funny or the heel slips on the track or stuff like that).

IMO, the decision tree is: Do you need a beef binding because you are an actual, legitimate freeride skier or you have a super burly ski? Then get a beef binding like the ATK Raider. Next, stepping one category down, do you want to trade 100g for the elasticity of the Titan Vario.2 (250g) or not? If not, then you want a race binding. Can you get the ATK Trofeo or the Plum 150/170 for cheaper than the Gara Titan AND do you care about that price difference? If so, get ATK/Plum. If you're paying full retail (all 450ish) then get the Gara Titan.

This season, I have Gara Titans on race skis, I have Vario.2s on my daily drivers, and I have Trofeos on my powder skis. My decision tree: I never wanted a beef binding. I wanted elasticity for my daily drivers, but I prioritized weight on my race skis, and I didn't need elasticity on my powder skis. On my powder skis, I got the Trofeos from Europe for cheap last spring, and I cared about the cost difference (although I tried damn hard to shill the Trofeos to some people I met in hopes they'd buy them off of me for full US retail price).

This is the definitive word on tech binding selection imo

[Lord Thomas]

Yep, that is some pretty solid reasoning.

[ey_allen]

In my experience, most users aren’t going to notice any appreciable difference in the skiing, striding, or release characteristics of any of these bindings, and obsessing over these subtleties is just an amusing fetish for gear nerds. What I suggest is more important and often overlooked are the often significant differences in relative simplicity or fuck-a rounded ness experienced during changeovers, and when adjusting heel risers, in real world conditions.

This.

I went with a G3 Zed, which doesn't get much love on this forum but is light enough and very easy to use with reliable release. No complaints so far, and I feel like I can actually use all my risers during a tour as I don't dread fiddling around to get it right. Transitions are painless as well.

Are there "better"/lighter/beefier bindings? Sure, I guess, but I haven't thought about my bindings once since I slapped them on.

[Lord Thomas]

This.

I went with a G3 Zed, which doesn't get much love on this forum but is light enough and very easy to use with reliable release. No complaints so far, and I feel like I can actually use all my risers during a tour as I don't dread fiddling around to get it right. Transitions are painless as well.

Are there "better"/lighter/beefier bindings? Sure, I guess, but I haven't thought about my bindings once since I slapped them on.

Yep, me too. Zed's are on my DD BMT 109's and have worked perfectly. The Trofeo+'s will go on the HL C132's when they get here. Fucking can't wait

[wilcox510]

If you want multiple riser options I’m not sure if you can beat the ATK C Raider. I took the brakes off and they are about 270 grams I think, and the best heel riser system I’ve used. I’ve been wishing for years that they would put this riser system on a stripped down binding for an around 200g binding with a high riser

[Benneke10]

Agreed, the Raider/C-Raider heel has the best risers ever. The Haute Route and RT 10 also have the lovely magnetic risers but fewer options than the Raider

[North]

Bump. Considering going weight weenie on my new "light" powder touring skis (1870g/per ha!).

I haven't skied a dynafit product in years, but am intrigued by the low tech, which I think is just a purple SL2.0? I like purple and the price is right. I'm skiing Crest 10s somewhere between an 8-9. Is the RV on the LT comparable or would I need to upgrade the U-Spring?

Any meaningfully better option in the same weight and price class? Negatives I'm seeing are possible U-Spring upgrade and toe shims to bring down the pin height.

[fleaches]

Any meaningfully better option in the same weight and price class? Negatives I'm seeing are possible U-Spring upgrade and toe shims to bring down the pin height.

For u spring bindings there's always atk trofeo or trab gara Titan (neither have purple options unfortunately).

I doubt you'd have to shim the toes on those, they are pretty low delta. Atk has 8 and 10 u springs and can be found pretty cheap from Europe. Trab is hard to find really cheap but that toe is the best.


Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Benneke10]

Yes, the low tech is a purple SL2.0. They probably have the most retention out of any binding in the weight class, but its a pretty dated design. The aluminum toe is known to crack occasionally, you have to rotate the heel piece at every transition (dealbreaker for me), the trapezoidal heel piece mount pattern requires a expensive, heavy adjustment plate if you choose to use one. The new Superlites aren't much better, as the newer toes are known to break as well.

[North]

Good input thanks. I actually have some NIB Vario.2 (alas, not purple) that I've been meaning to put on my "scary steep firm skis". Maybe I'll rob that toe and do a frankenbinding. What's the preferred minimalist heel? BSL Adjustment is not important for me.

I had bad luck with the ATK Trofeo heel. It got gummed up quickly with grit on a volcano trip requiring me to disassemble on the mountainside to get into ski mode.

[Benneke10]

There is no perfect heel out there right now IMO. The original Trab Vario heel was sweet because it had a ton of retention and elasticity, and it could be mounted flat onto the ski or onto a minimalist adjustment plate, but it is no longer made and very tough to find.

ATK Trofeo heels get gunked up super easily in spring, as you mentioned

ATK World Cup heels just don't seem super reliable to me because they have no elasticity but they have solid retention. I imagine they have the same gunking issues as the Trofeo though

Trab Gara Titan heels are light and have nice magnetized flaps but don't have the best retention

I don't have personal experience with Plum but they seem to have solid retention, probably some of the best currently available

Don't bother with Kreuzspitze, they have terrible retention

Super curious how you were able to take apart your ATK heels in the field! Sounds like a giant pain

[North]

That's a detailed rundown gracias!

Sound like Plum could work or...SL heels ha. I perused the 300g thread and looks like the SL heels have a lot of fans for the retention you mentioned. The race flap heel isn't a big deal for me. I don't remember if I rotate my Crests or MTNs. I think it varies.

On the ATKs I didn't fully disassemble, just flipped 180 on the adjustment plate. Even that was a pain because the heel slipped in the track on a prior outing so I had them cranked down. So now I skip ATK race heels and slot-style adjustment plates.

[XXX-er]

One thing I will not compromise on is infinitely adjustable release in both X and Y axes.

same here ^^ I am not going to ski with my fingers crossed

also even if they are heavier I don't care I like the convenience of brakes

[skis_the_trees]

I would disagree on the Kreuzspitze heels -- there are too many variables involved to make a blanket statement on them. I have extensive use of the GT 1.0 heels and they are awesome, although I dialed the adjustable lateral release up a bit for steep jump turn retention. But at least they give you that adjustment ability for a really low weight. Heel pins also rotate which avoids U spring wear, makes them easier to step into, and other great features on that heel. (And to be fair, I have a lot of leverage on the heel with a ~340 BSL; I've also rotated out of heels in jump turns with Speed Radicals, TLT Speed, and SSL2.0 heels, with nary a pre-release otherwise in a season).

It seems like the fixed value race style heels like a Trab TR Race or Kreuzspitze RS are probably for lighter skiers (150lbs?) on smaller more Euro style skis.

The rotation required between skinning and climbing for the Dynafit SSL 2.0 isn't a big deal for me and I have found those heels to be really great with solid retention and solid skiing feel. The 1oz weight penalty of the B&D plates that convert them to Vertical/Radical heel mount pattern isn't a big deal for me. My pow skis (Carbon Megawatt, 120mm waist) have steel rad toes and SSL2.0 heels (aka the SuperRadical). Two risers can be nice in spring mountaineering situations with a heavier pack.

Anyways, not trying to argue just offering my $0.02 of different experience.

[skis_the_trees]

Bump. Considering going weight weenie on my new "light" powder touring skis (1870g/per ha!).

I haven't skied a dynafit product in years, but am intrigued by the low tech, which I think is just a purple SL2.0? I like purple and the price is right. I'm skiing Crest 10s somewhere between an 8-9. Is the RV on the LT comparable or would I need to upgrade the U-Spring?

Any meaningfully better option in the same weight and price class? Negatives I'm seeing are possible U-Spring upgrade and toe shims to bring down the pin height.

The original SSL2.0 (black/green) came with a really stiff U spring, like RV 12+ to step into. Lou Dawson ground his down for easier step in and a more realistic vertical RV, and I did the same on mine. I think they now spec a more reasonable U spring out of the box. As I noted in my post above, I really like these heels. If you are pow touring then the need to rotate 180 for skinning would seem like no big deal (at least for my type of pow touring laps).

The pin height/pin delta on these is a really reasonable ~8mm, you shouldn't need to shim the toes unless you like a really flat ramp. These are my preferred ramp delta as is.

My main concern for your stated use is that the toes are known to develop cracks at the rear holes. Doesn't typically result in catastrophic failure in the field (or not yet for me!) but I prefer a beefier toe on fat skis (like the Steel Radical toe for an 80g weight penalty per toe). How fat are your skis?

[North]

Agreed on rotation. I'm not yo-yo-ing very often. Transitions are limited and time is plentiful on most of my tours. I typically snowmo to the bottom of a big-ish run (1500-2000') and am in for 1-2 laps. 3-4 lap days are rare.

I misread the pin height chart (looked at Speed Turn 2.0). The stated +7.5mm ramp for SL2.0 is fine. My Crests are +11mm. I've only noticed ramp on Speed Rads (+14.5mm) and old Verticals (+16mm!).

I'm a lightweight at ~160lb so not much concern for breaking things, but I know these have a reputation. Skis are 118 underfoot (BG Tour). I'm considering robbing toes from an unused set of Vario2.0 and pairing with SL2.0 heels or a race heel. My interest in the light stuff is less about weight and more "why not" given that I'm not using most of the features on my current setups.

The GT2.0 is impressive at 190g with adjustable RV. Just not something I expect to utilize. Set and forget.

[Foggy_Goggles]

G3 Zed?

Not light enough?

Something else nerds don't like?

Sent from my Turbo 850 Flatbrimed Highhorse

[XXX-er]

Half price ^^ right now at G3

I think all those sploding Dynafit (not so rad) Rads was really good for G3

[Boissal]

Agreed on rotation. I'm not yo-yo-ing very often. Transitions are limited and time is plentiful on most of my tours. I typically snowmo to the bottom of a big-ish run (1500-2000') and am in for 1-2 laps. 3-4 lap days are rare.

I misread the pin height chart (looked at Speed Turn 2.0). The stated +7.5mm ramp for SL2.0 is fine. My Crests are +11mm. I've only noticed ramp on Speed Rads (+14.5mm) and old Verticals (+16mm!).

I'm a lightweight at ~160lb so not much concern for breaking things, but I know these have a reputation. Skis are 118 underfoot (BG Tour). I'm considering robbing toes from an unused set of Vario2.0 and pairing with SL2.0 heels or a race heel. My interest in the light stuff is less about weight and more "why not" given that I'm not using most of the features on my current setups.

The GT2.0 is impressive at 190g with adjustable RV. Just not something I expect to utilize. Set and forget.

FWIW, I have a pair of Superlite 2.0 on my big skis (Heritage Labs C113) and am loving the setup. They shave a bit of weight, are essentially bombproof (I thought the toe cracks were on the older model before toe redesign?), I have never really missed a higher riser, I can use them in flat mode when needed (the heel doesn't rotate much on its own), and having to manually rotate the heel at transitions really doesn't bother me (same boat as you, I tend to do longer laps, if I have to reach for my bindings 4x per tour it's not a big deal). I'm quite fat this year (probably close to 200 lbs with the kit) and have the 10DIN version, I can charge as hard as I want with 0 issues. I used to have the 12DIN version and at times I was flailing to get in the binding, especially when standing on a very precarious perch in steep terrain.
IMO it makes perfect sense to rock light and simple tech bindings on big skis. They tend to be used in much less demanding conditions.

[North]

G3 Zed?

Not light enough?

Something else nerds don't like?

Sent from my Turbo 850 Flatbrimed Highhorse

Different class of binding (barely, weight-wise which is nuts). If I wanted BSL adjust, RV adjust, and roll pin heel, I'd get another ATK Crest. They're lighter and often cheaper (from 'yurp) than the G3. Brakes if you want 'em. Really hard to beat it in that category IMO. Yes I have a spreadsheet.

Right now I'm trying to justify paying more to get less duh. Marie Kondo-ing my bindings. Also purple. If I could get a Crest in purple I'd probably just do that. They only sell it at RV 8.

[Foggy_Goggles]

So nerds...got it.

I was just surprised at the weight. Zeds and ION have just worked good for me but I get wanting to go full dork.

Sent from a 6 m/s face melting thermal

[apocequip307]

It seems less well known, but I have had two sets of SSL 2.0 Heel pieces break, and saw a few more when I was working in a shop. The most concerning failures (seen 3x) were cracked/sheared U-springs, with cracks originating at the "riser pin notch".

Ive also seen the lateral release spring dramitcally explode on a few occasions.

long story short, I cant think of a good reason to go SSL 2.0 over Gara Titan, haute route, etc. Cirque Scaler really hit the nail on the head with his rundown.

[North]

^^^useful input thank you. Somehow I glossed over the HR10. Basically a better SSL 2.0 at the same weight for a direct mount (toes that don't crack, cam heel w/adjustable release vertical and lateral, better mount pattern, comes with BSL adjustment plate).

And the gara titan looks like a better version of the Plum R150. Toes that everybody seems to love, different u-springs options to adjust RV, and about as light as it gets.

Think I have the best options dialed in now:
Adjustable RV + Adjustable BSL = ATK Crest (280g w/brake, 225 w/o)
Adjustable RV = ATK Haute Route (179g direct mount)
Bare Bones = Ski Trab Gara Titan (125g)