The Hot Tub of Queso/Waxed Chain Thread

[climberevan]

I must admit that wax was disappointing today. My shit started being pretty noisy about 50mi in to the 100mi race. I attribute it to the fairly dusty sections in the pack.

Ms CE did the same course, but at lower speeds with less close riding in groups, and her chain was only slightly noisy.

Fine dust is the Achilles heel of wax (or all lubes).

[Lvovsky]

You all reusing quick links because f it if it clicks in it’s good or are you all dentists with $12-$15 new links every time?

I’ve reused mine once or twice.

[rideit]

Damn, I reuse mine dozens of times. Never had an issue that I can recall.

[J. Barron DeJong]

You all reusing quick links because f it if it clicks in it’s good or are you all dentists with $12-$15 new links every time?

I’ve reused mine once or twice.

I have shimano chains and don’t know how many times I’ve re-used the quick links now, even though they claim single use. No issues so far, but I’ve probably jinxed myself now and will promptly eat shit due to a failed link next ride.

[Jtlange]

So I bought a pack of Silca wax. Ive gotten at least 15 waxes on chains out of it and it still looks like I can get another 30 out of it. Honestly spectacular value purchasing the pre made wax from them.

[J. Barron DeJong]

So I bought a pack of Silca wax. Ive gotten at least 15 waxes on chains out of it and it still looks like I can get another 30 out of it. Honestly spectacular value purchasing the pre made wax from them.

That’s my general feeling with MSW. It may be expensive for what it is - as in the raw ingredients - but actual cost to use is quite low. Especially when you factor in increased drivetrain longevity on XTR/Dura-Ace parts.

[Roxtar]

I haven’t tried any hot melt chain wax other than Molten Speed Wax, but my guess is that while your mix is probably better than the majority of the other chain lube options out there, there’s likely some additional benefit to going with a purpose made formula.

Like, putting candle wax on your skis is probably better than a lot of other things you could put on there (whale blubber maybe?), but a purpose made formulation is going to be better.

I’ve wondered if ski wax itself would make a good chain wax. Maybe a moly formula.

The potential downside is see with candle wax/beeswax (again noting that I haven’t tried it) is that candle wax likely has some paraffin oil in it, and beeswax is usually a bit tacky, both of which would make it more likely to pick up contamination, and also not shed wax particles to the same degree (which helps carry out contamination).

And the paraffin oil content is what makes lubes like squirt/smoove unable to be cleaned with just hot water. (Have you tried to see if your formula can be cleaned by just swishing in water?)

My guess is that ski wax is more similar to the low-oil base wax being used in the hot melt chain wax, but I could be wrong.

When I had my shop I found a company from the midwest called Fast Wax https://www.skifastwax.com/. These guys are wax savants that live for creating super-waxes for nordic racing. Incredible stuff.
They came out with a chain wax (no additive, just wax) that is no longer available and I used it for a while before running out and switching to MSW.
I emailed them and asked about what they used in it and they said it was very similar their high end base conditioner.

This weekend I made a batch using good base conditioner wax and PTFE, ala Oz Cycling's 10:1 mixture. (One important caveat is using super fine 1.5-1.6 micron PTFE powder. Anything courser will have a tough time getting into the rollers).
The issues with PTFE seems to be limited to fumes from overheating. It makes sense that companies are phasing it out due to lawyer recs but if it works better and I know not to burn it...
I'll report back feedback.

[Roxtar]

I must admit that wax was disappointing today. My shit started being pretty noisy about 50mi in to the 100mi race. I attribute it to the fairly dusty sections in the pack.

Ms CE did the same course, but at lower speeds with less close riding in groups, and her chain was only slightly noisy.

Fine dust is the Achilles heel of wax (or all lubes).

Yeah, that is the Achilles heel of all lubes. Hot waxing isn't any worse but it is noisier because there is no liquid lube to mitigate the noise. On the plus side, there also isn't any liquid lube to draw the dust into the rollers, exacerbating the damage.

I recently did a 5 hr enduro race and, because of this concern, I waxed the chain the day before.
It was quiet all day.

[Roxtar]

You all reusing quick links because f it if it clicks in it’s good or are you all dentists with $12-$15 new links every time?

I’ve reused mine once or twice.

I've never replaced a non-broken quick link.
Only broken two. One user error and one worn out (pin came loose).

[Roxtar]

I find gasoline cleans better than mineral spirits, but it's nastier to work with, so I still just use mineral spirits.

This weekend, wanted to try a different wax solution so I needed to do a serious chain cleaning that would eliminate everything, old wax, any old oil/grease, etc.
Started with gasoline, ala OzCyling, and then went to mineral spirits to alcohol.
You nailed it on the above quote.
While gasoline is definitely a PITA to work with, it just destroyed everything in it's path. The chain came out of the gas completely free of all contamination, other than the film of gas itself, which was removed by the mineral spirits and alcohol.
I've previously tried mineral spirits on wax and found it wanting. The gasoline just ate it.

It would be awesome if white gas works reasonably close to this well to lessen the gasoline issues, though.

[J. Barron DeJong]

That’s my general feeling with MSW. It may be expensive for what it is - as in the raw ingredients - but actual cost to use is quite low. Especially when you factor in increased drivetrain longevity on XTR/Dura-Ace parts.

I think I may have come across as being too hard on MSW here. You can get 1 lb. of MSW for $30 with free shipping from Tree Fort Bikes right now.

180g of Swix universal glide wax (so their cheap stuff with no additives) goes for about $20, so not like MSW is out of line with their pricing.

[GeorgiaSnow]

Feel like there is something to Toast’s observation about rough downhill riding knocking lubes out of chains, including wax. Feel like my road chains last forever and the mtn chains get squeaky fast with rough riding. Only have tried old formula MSW. Anybody feel like anything does better lasting a little longer?


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[climberevan]

Dude, it's the dust.

Silca is trying to kill the "it's a hassle to clean the chain" argument. https://youtu.be/ttWQeoaCQGA

[Falcon3]

I'm curious if some of the negative experiences with wax aren't from incomplete cleaning. I know I've had some waxes ( I use Super Secret drip) that feel shitty after one or two rides and some that can go for 150-200 miles, both in dry conditions. I've stepped up my cleaning process and I've had way more good luck than bad since then.

Interesting to see how that Silca stripper works, could be great.

[Jtlange]

I'm curious if some of the negative experiences with wax aren't from incomplete cleaning. I know I've had some waxes ( I use Super Secret drip) that feel shitty after one or two rides and some that can go for 150-200 miles, both in dry conditions. I've stepped up my cleaning process and I've had way more good luck than bad since then.

Interesting to see how that Silca stripper works, could be great.

I would expect this is correct. Just like painting, the prep is the majority of the work and if you dont put in the work, you dont get fantastic results.

[MegaStoke]

I’ve recently converted my daily driver mtbs to the hot tub full of queso, and have been impressed with the results, but I still have apprehensions about converting my bikepacking rig over.

What’s the move for bikepacking racing where I will for sure need a top up mid-ride? I’m planning on racing the AZT800 this October, and figure I’ll start with a hot waxed chain, but what’s the move once it gets squeaky and shitty, bearing in mind I‘ll be riding upwards of 20hrs a day in dusty conditions, so drip wax reapplications might prove tricky.

Any recommended products? I’m currently using Silca Hot Melt in the sous vide style bag, pretty stoked on that for day rides.

[climberevan]

As covered before, Silica Super Secret drip on top of noisy waxed chains works well. I did that for 3 weeks in NZ last year. You can put it on and ride immediately.

Some people actually carry spare chains, which makes sense if you think about how much time you lose to friction. The weight would be unnoticeable and the time to swap is barely more than to lube.

[MegaStoke]

And once both chains have worn out initial applications of the hot queso, just alternate between two chains that I’m treating with drip wax while stashed away?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Seems like a scenario where applying a good quality wet lube after the initial Queso wears off - something like Silca Synergetic - might be the best option.

I believe that the strategy Zero Friction has recommended, and possibly Silca too.

[joetron]

I had a similar wet lube thought, but I don’t know if that would be a good call in AZ. If the monsoons are pumping, then yes. If really dry, then Super Secret Drip when you take a break is probably the ticket.


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[XtrPickels]

Seems like a scenario where applying a good quality wet lube after the initial Queso wears off - something like Silca Synergetic - might be the best option.

I believe that the strategy Zero Friction has recommended, and possibly Silca too.

I could have sworn that I responded to Evan, but I don't see it.

I e-mailed a few times with the guy at Zero-Friction and he recommended carrying the 2nd waxed chain on my Kokopelli ride, cited it's faster, quick to change, and you have a spare "just in case". Took all of 30 seconds to change during a water-stop at the Green River.

His alternative for mid-ride re-up was to use synergetic instead of drip wax.

I do think it's the ultra-fine powdery dust - those are the only times I've had issues. In my case, I don't think it's the initial chain prep. I typically do multiple rounds of mineral-spirits (until they run clear) and then an alcohol rinse prior to drying and dipping.

[climberevan]

Silca does recommend going to the Synergetic after the initial wax wears off in long races. It sounds like that stuff is gross but much longer lasting than SS. I'd rather put SS on a few extra times than deal with a dirty chain, but I'm not racing multi day events.

[carlh]

Any wax that will stay on when riding through mud or is a dry condition’s solution only? I don’t care about a couple watts but cleaner and less maintenance are appealing. I’ve been running nfs for the past 5 years with no real complaints but I’m almost out so open to a change.

[Roxtar]

I typically do multiple rounds of mineral-spirits (until they run clear) and then an alcohol rinse prior to drying and dipping.

You might try starting with gasoline, ala Oz Cycling, and then mineral spirits & alcohol. Yes it's somewhat of a PITA to deal with but I tried it on my last cleaning, where I wanted everything cleaned out, and it really made a difference.

[Roxtar]

As far as using a mid ride drip wax supplement, a part of me wonders if it's a good idea. A huge selling point of Queso is the self cleaning thing. You don't attract the grit and combine it into your lube, thus sucking it into the rolly parts. Adding a drip wax onto a dusty chain just seems like a bad idea and might do that exact thing. You're locking the grit in with your new wax lube.
I'm not convinced that the best idea isn't to just deal with the sound. It's just the surface plates. You still have wax lube protecting the inside workings of your chain.
Maybe a better plan is a quick rinse of the chain with your water bottle, especially at a race where water is readily available.

I don't know.
That said, I'm curious about trying the Oz Cycling DIY wax drip lube for that purpose.
Basically just adding more of the same wax you immersed the chain in.