Fatherhood anonymous; an open discussion on being a dad.

[anotherVTskibum]

I dunno, being funny is up there in importance. Gotta care a little bit IMO.

I'd argue that dealing with kids provides plenty of examples of the importance of being able to laugh, because often the other options suck. For example, thinking that screaming and crying is because a one-year old has cold hands when it turns out, after rushing back to the car, that he just wanted you to skin and ski faster. Being able to be funny is a connected skill, although there are many different forms of it.

On the "every life and every situation is different" front, my now-ex-wife and I split up when our youngest was six weeks old and our oldest was about a year and a half. Tl;Dr version is that if your relationship is already stressed, adding another pregnancy and child to the mix is unlikely to improve things, particularly when one of the other stressors is an ongoing pandemic. The kids live with their mom, I take them once a week (average, my work schedule in the winter screws with that a bit), and we meet up and do some stuff together, especially skiing.

In a lot of ways, my ex gets the short end of the stick--she puts a lot more time and effort into taking care of them, from bedtime to getting them dressed and out the door to ski. I live with my mother, so when they're here, we can play one on one defense rather than zone, and there's usually not a lot that we need to convince them to do that they don't want to. So on more than one occasion, she's put the effort into getting them to the hill, and when I meet them, the older one immediately wants to ski with me and "no mommy", which is incredibly unfair to the parent who actually got the toddlers to the ski hill.

But at the same time, in missing out on the lion's share of the work of raising them, I miss a lot of the little moments that come on a daily basis, too.

And, for what it's worth, what ends up on social media from both myself and the ex is almost always the happy moments, even if that's two minutes of smiling that was actually surrounded by half an hour of screaming on each side. So enjoy the kid stoke you see, but take any conclusions you're tempted to draw about that family's life with at least a few grains of salt.

[frorider]

split up when our youngest was six weeks old and our oldest was about a year and a half.

Ouch.

[anotherVTskibum]

Ouch.

Indeed. It's a much longer story and was exceptionally painful and messy, but at this point I try very hard not to think about who did what to whom and just focus on being the best parent I can moving forward.

[Hopeless Sinner]

.

Thanks for digging that up.

[TahoeJ]

I don't care how smart, pretty or funny my girls are. To me, this and being good people are the most important. Nice work!

You don't care how smart they are? I mean, work ethic is great and all but with my kids I'm trying to instill the concept of work smarter, not harder. Same as my dad did for me, which I've always appreciated. When I was in high school / college / and then in my early 20's I was grinding it out and he asked me what my end game was and that has always stuck with me.

[Danno]

And, for what it's worth, what ends up on social media from both myself and the ex is almost always the happy moments, even if that's two minutes of smiling that was actually surrounded by half an hour of screaming on each side. So enjoy the kid stoke you see, but take any conclusions you're tempted to draw about that family's life with at least a few grains of salt.

everyone should read this again

[WaistDeepGroomers]

Just found this group today and super grateful I did. Knocking on the door of first-time fatherhood now (we're trying), with all the accompanying nerves about how life will change.

Question I have for the group is: if you have had the choice to begin with, how have you weighed living somewhere that serves your life personally, v. being close to family that can help w/childcare?

Have a deep desire to be at the foot of a bike trail/ski run so I can make the most of the rare windows for outdoor self-care (and also for fun play with the kid(s)), but also appreciating how hard the childcare picture is out there RN and value of being close to family for that. Buddy of mine in Tahoe just got an au pair which is a solution I hadn't heard of in awhile (in light of the lack of daycare).

Curious how others have weighed and tackled this. Again, thanks for all y'all sharing openly and vulnerably.

[Danno]

Just found this group today and super grateful I did. Knocking on the door of first-time fatherhood now (we're trying), with all the accompanying nerves about how life will change.

Question I have for the group is: if you have had the choice to begin with, how have you weighed living somewhere that serves your life personally, v. being close to family that can help w/childcare?

Have a deep desire to be at the foot of a bike trail/ski run so I can make the most of the rare windows for outdoor self-care (and also for fun play with the kid(s)), but also appreciating how hard the childcare picture is out there RN and value of being close to family for that. Buddy of mine in Tahoe just got an au pair which is a solution I hadn't heard of in awhile (in light of the lack of daycare).

Curious how others have weighed and tackled this. Again, thanks for all y'all sharing openly and vulnerably.

good luck, mang.

I never had the option of family nearby, because they weren't. Plus, as an older parent who was the child of older parents, they wouldn't have been much help even if they were here. And sure, I am envious AF of the people who did have family near that was willing and able to assist in child care. If they are truly willing to be day care providers that is a hudge money saver, and just being able to have regular date nights or regular time to do your own thing without burdening your spouse is big.

That said, if I lived with a trail out my backdoor, that would make a 60 minute window a ticket to sanity.

So I guess I'm no help on your question.

[skaredshtles]

Just found this group today and super grateful I did. Knocking on the door of first-time fatherhood now (we're trying), with all the accompanying nerves about how life will change.

1st piece of advice: Don't do it.

Question I have for the group is: if you have had the choice to begin with, how have you weighed living somewhere that serves your life personally, v. being close to family that can help w/childcare?

I realized early in life that having a minimum 1500 mile buffer from family was imperative. And I really like my family.

It's probably mostly because I'm a selfish asshole.

Choose wisely.

[californiagrown]

If you live 5 mins from family, how long would it take to get in your ski/bike sanity checks?

One of the cool parts about living right near MTB/skiing/recreation is that you dont need to take off for a full day to recharge. You can go do that during nap time, or only take a half day. That way you get the me-time recharge, while not missing out on being a parent as well (especially if you work full time too- that shit takes a lot of time away from being a parent).

Best of both worlds is to live somewhere cool with easy access to recreation, and have a big enough house or an ADU that has a steady stream of family staying over to see and care for the baby.


Having Gparents provide childcare is great and cheap... but they also will not necessarily listen to you and will do as they see fit. Wheras with a nanny or daycare you can choose how your kid is handled and brought up. I know a few couples whose kid has a rough time because the grandparents WILL NOT stick to the schedule or style that the parents want and practice... and this results in an unhappy kid who has no schedule or consistency. Also, taking care of a baby/toddler is hard work, and its waaaay the fuck harder to do when youre a grandparent compared to when they were young parents. So keep that in mind that they may not really be up to the task no matter what they think right now... and then youre stuck living in a place you arent stoked about, dealing with stressed extended family, trying to find part time childcare. And also remember that having grandparents provide steady childcare may bring up past issues in their relationship that ceased being a thing when you went off to college, but can now rear their head... eg chore and workload sharing, parenting style, etc.

Have you looked into a nanny-share? Lots of facebook groups with folks looking to do a nannyshare. We do that with a little girl down the street who is a few weeks older than my little boy. Its been working great as he gets a shitton of socialization with her as well as other toddlers at community centers, but the nanny keeps him on our schedule and "program", and its almost as affordable as a daycare.

[californiagrown]

I realized early in life that having a minimum 1500 mile buffer from family was imperative. And I really like my family.

It's probably mostly because I'm a selfish asshole.

Choose wisely.

I thought that too. My SIL moved a accross the country to a few blocks away while my wife was pregnant and i though it would be awful as we get along fine, but also dont like each other that much. Its turned out great in that she is always there when we need childcare for date nights, trips, working late, etc... but because we dont like each other (but are totally fine about it) there is definitely a healthy amount of space given. Its pretty ideal honestly.

[skaredshtles]

I thought that too. My SIL moved a accross the country to a few blocks away while my wife was pregnant and i though it would be awful as we get along fine, but also dont like each other that much. Its turned out great in that she is always there when we need childcare for date nights, trips, working late, etc... but because we dont like each other (but are totally fine about it) there is definitely a healthy amount of space given. Its pretty ideal honestly.

I mean... that's a pretty unique scenario. I wouldn't bank on getting lucky like that if I were WDG.

[schuss]

I moved next to a local trail network so a 40 minute bike ride only takes 45 minutes to do including changing.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

If you live 5 mins from family, how long would it take to get in your ski/bike sanity checks?

One of the cool parts about living right near MTB/skiing/recreation is that you dont need to take off for a full day to recharge. You can go do that during nap time, or only take a half day. That way you get the me-time recharge, while not missing out on being a parent as well (especially if you work full time too- that shit takes a lot of time away from being a parent).

Best of both worlds is to live somewhere cool with easy access to recreation, and have a big enough house or an ADU that has a steady stream of family staying over to see and care for the baby.


Having Gparents provide childcare is great and cheap... but they also will not necessarily listen to you and will do as they see fit. Wheras with a nanny or daycare you can choose how your kid is handled and brought up. I know a few couples whose kid has a rough time because the grandparents WILL NOT stick to the schedule or style that the parents want and practice... and this results in an unhappy kid who has no schedule or consistency. Also, taking care of a baby/toddler is hard work, and its waaaay the fuck harder to do when youre a grandparent compared to when they were young parents. So keep that in mind that they may not really be up to the task no matter what they think right now... and then youre stuck living in a place you arent stoked about, dealing with stressed extended family, trying to find part time childcare. And also remember that having grandparents provide steady childcare may bring up past issues in their relationship that ceased being a thing when you went off to college, but can now rear their head... eg chore and workload sharing, parenting style, etc.

Have you looked into a nanny-share? Lots of facebook groups with folks looking to do a nannyshare. We do that with a little girl down the street who is a few weeks older than my little boy. Its been working great as he gets a shitton of socialization with her as well as other toddlers at community centers, but the nanny keeps him on our schedule and "program", and its almost as affordable as a daycare.

This is all excellent advice and there isn't an easy answer, everyone will have different trade-offs that work for them. We didn't have an option but daycare here worked well for us. My wife's parents live 2 hours away, which is kind of ideal, since day to day contact between my wife and MIL (especially over child-rearing) would be a nightmare. But we get lots of weekends and trips where they come up and watch our girls or we bring them to Grandma and Grandpa. But even just seeing them monthly, or every other month, every one of the issues caligrown mentions above have come up. Never in any serious way, but if they were our girls day-to-day care providers some of them would turn into a big issue. So do a brutal assessment of the family you would be relying on and how potential conflicts might go, especially if they will be working for free. Good luck and have fun!

[fatnslow]

My parents retired when my second kid was born and started providing in-home care for them. They would literally show up in the morning when we were rolling out the door and watch them until one of us came home. The last part of the day for them was taking lunch order for the next day from the kids. My wife didn't agree 100% with what they did but understood the amount of love and attention the kids received was priceless. Both my folks have passed away but my kids still have incredible memories of them.

[californiagrown]

Another thing to keep in mind is that IME when we were looking for nannys and childcare, its really difficult to find part-time care. Most quality nannys and daycares are in super high demand and want a full time kid so splitting time between grandparents and a nanny/daycare might not be easy or possible to setup.

[muted reborn]

5 minutes from a trailhead is worth so much with or without kids. Sometimes you just get no motivation being exhausted being up with the baby and don't want to deal with traffic or leaving the wife for a long time, or deciding between food shopping or biking or coordinating with a retired MIL who somehow is always busy - often the hardest part is getting out the door.

[Touring_Sedan]

We moved to 5 minutes from the trailhead right after we got married 18 years ago and started having kids about 8 years ago. At the time, the closest family was 2,000 miles away. It was tough, really tough. We had friends who were in the same bucket and we shared reciprocal babysitting duties in emergencies. That took the edge off considerably. The other thing that took the edge off... being 5 minutes from the trailhead. We were able to find an in home daycare that we trusted intimately and once that ball was rolling, although expensive, all was well. My parents have since retired and moved into the area and they're helping out a bunch. Given the chance to do it again, I wouldn't change anything. My ability to get out for an hour or so and find my own sanity has made me a better person. The ability to take my family into the woods at the drop of a hat has made us all better people.

[alpinevibes]

Been reading this thread consistently for a while as a kid is about to drop into my life in a few short months. Gotta say these last couple pages scared the shit out of me and reassured me at the same time. Things looked a bit too picture perfect til now but I finally get to see the other side of the coin. Been seeing it in real life with a couple friends but this thread had me wondering if they were just a bunch of degens struggling with their kiddos. Turns out it's hard as shit for everyone. Got it. Still gripped.

Pretty much, but this is just the more-real, maybe darker parts of wrestling with a change of course in your life. My biggest takeaway now [with twin 3.5y/o boys] is that you need to accept and be real with yourself about the changes your life will take on - both immediate and longer term. I think that I thought like I was cognisant during the pregnancy, but now reflect that I didn't really talk about it enough with my spouse. We've figured out a balance now, and also get our time in on skis, bikes, etc. But there a was a while there figuring out the transition was frustrating and I felt like I was losing on both ends (kids and personally), no matter what I chose.

I think you need to be aware, as a couple going into a pregnancy, what your strengths and weaknesses are and how that's going to play out raising an infant>toddler>kid. Talk about how you want to manage your time, your personal needs, your goals - all that. Because when shit hits the fan and your life seems to be falling apart in new and different ways, it can be really hard to rationalize the different pieces and how to put them back together. As others have said above: professional help is huge and should be on the table for everyone to consider, without shame. It's easy to realize now that we could've planned and talked about all this more ahead of time, but unfortunately we didn't and it kinda messed me up for a while. Ultimately, I swallowed my pride and worked with a therapist and was able to reconstruct how I viewed the different aspects of my life, my responsibilities and "my" time. I feel like now, a few years on, I'm in a better place to look past the short term loss of personal time, personal control or even personal happiness and accept that I want to be a parent, I want to invest the time in my kids/family and I believe I'll be a better person for it. I also trust that despite some personal time and experiences lost "now," eventually I'll get some more time back to myself and with my partner down the road. I feel like if you can't rationalize those bigger concepts, prior to having a kid, maybe a different path is better.

What about - waking up early, walking the dog, making breakfast and lunch for the kids, getting them dressed and out the door, going to work for 10 hours, getting your ass-handed to you at work - coming home exhausted and the wife says "the kids are driving me crazy - i'm retreating to the bedroom for the night" - then your sad ass is making dinner, doing laundry, putting the kids to bed....and the next day is Groundhog day, same shit again....

Or, for example, the wife is dealing with sick kids at home while WFH and after a few days of this she is like "I'm going to the desert alone for a few days, see ya Monday" and while I support us having alone-time mini-vacations 110% and it is VERY good for her to do this - when can a Dad ever say "I'm leaving for the weekend, I need a break from family life!", it just doesn't happen. When everything falls apart we gotta be the strong ones even if yer not in the mood for it. Sure, we can plan bike/ski trips in advance but we can't just drop out of life on a whim and refuel when needed.

No, if both of us are exhausted I'm good at putting in the hard work and not being resentful about it. The more the wife gets breaks, the better she can be as a mom and wife. I enjoy being someone she can always lean on when needed, but yeah I roll my eyes about it sometimes and complain here to see if anyone else can relate. What's actually frustrating is she doesn't take enough time alone in the desert or visiting Jackson friends - I often have to suggest it to her.

I resonate with this a decent amount and feel like I fall on my sword 9 times out of ten with these situation. That's not to say I blame or resent the situation/imbalance with my wife, but I accept that she doesn't have the faculties to stay 100% on it as a individual+spouse+professional+parent, day in and day out, and stay sane. My job is pretty easy and flexible; even on the shittiest, hard days I can rally and do the whole dance till bedtime, as needed. She needs time and space and I try to support her by sometimes pushing her out the door to bike, ski etc. I've known for a long time that I was going to have to take on a lot of the heavy lifting, sacrifice my own time/escapes and just "suck it up" to make the whole show go round every day. It sucks, but I came to terms with it as what's best for my spouse and the kids, and I've found ways to create new forms of balance and time for myself, personally.

Question I have for the group is: if you have had the choice to begin with, how have you weighed living somewhere that serves your life personally, v. being close to family that can help w/childcare?

Have a deep desire to be at the foot of a bike trail/ski run so I can make the most of the rare windows for outdoor self-care (and also for fun play with the kid(s)), but also appreciating how hard the childcare picture is out there RN and value of being close to family for that. Buddy of mine in Tahoe just got an au pair which is a solution I hadn't heard of in awhile (in light of the lack of daycare).

We're 1200mi away from all our family but live in a place that fits our wants and provides the outdoor things we need as individuals, a couple and now a family. I would never trade the opportunity for potentially-easier, potentially-cheaper childcare over the access and lifestyle our living situation affords. One of my big things as a parent is that I believe it's fundamental to reflect who you truly are/want to be, as a parent, to your kids. You don't choose to have kids then "close the chapter" of your life of who you were before. You need to maintain those aspects for your sanity and to be the best version of yourself; that makes you the best parent and shows your kids in genuine way who "you" are. It's a grind to juggle that with your life changes, but I think the grind is worth it.

One of the cool parts about living right near MTB/skiing/recreation is that you don't need to take off for a full day to recharge. You can go do that during nap time, or only take a half day. That way you get the me-time recharge, while not missing out on being a parent as well (especially if you work full time too- that shit takes a lot of time away from being a parent).

Exactly - you figure out how to weave the times and little escapes/training into your life and hopefully makes it a consistent thing that works for everyone. I think it also makes it much easier to get your kids involved in what you love to do and get them engaged in those activities if they're exposed to you and your spouse mixing it into the daily routine.

[riser4]

When he had our first kid we didn't realize that we needed to line up daycare years in advance, long before conception. There were no spots available anywhere close by. My wife ended up driving about 200 miles a day for a while. That included some mileage for work.however it was not sustainable and we moved so that we could split the commuting mileage. This was all so we could pay my in-laws to watch the kid. I was fine with paying them. The going rate where they lived was half the rate in Burlington.

[MarcusBrody]

We moved to 5 minutes from the trailhead right after we got married 18 years ago and started having kids about 8 years ago. At the time, the closest family was 2,000 miles away. It was tough, really tough. We had friends who were in the same bucket and we shared reciprocal babysitting duties in emergencies. That took the edge off considerably. The other thing that took the edge off... being 5 minutes from the trailhead. We were able to find an in home daycare that we trusted intimately and once that ball was rolling, although expensive, all was well. My parents have since retired and moved into the area and they're helping out a bunch. Given the chance to do it again, I wouldn't change anything. My ability to get out for an hour or so and find my own sanity has made me a better person. The ability to take my family into the woods at the drop of a hat has made us all better people.

This is kind of how things have been for us. My parents live in a little, rural town in Appalachian PA. No chance of us living there, job or wife-preference wise. My wife's parents lived/live in Mumbai/Chennai, no desire to live there. We were always going to live a long way from our parents and extended family and that definitely made a few things harder. We were really jealous of some friends who would have grandparents come by one evening a week so they could go out or watch the kids a couple of days a week so they spent less on daycare (and the kids/grandparents got to spend time with each other). But we made it work. Like Touring_Sedan, we've made some good friends with kids and we help each other out when necessary and that's been nice.

Another bad thing about living far away is that you just need to spend a lot of time to make sure you have those family connections (assuming that is important to you). Thankfully, video chat has made it a lot easier and I'm really grateful that my son gets to see/talk to his grandparents regularly. The distance also ends up eating our vacation time as we spend a lot of it going on long trips to visit family. If we got to see them regularly, we'd be more likely to use our longer breaks to go see other places in the world.

So all else being equal, if I could live close to family I definitely would. But at the same time, it's not the absolute most important thing to me. I like our current town. I like that I have amazing mountain biking I can ride out my door to. Tons of space for other outdoor adventures and save for a few months, really nice weather and lots of sunshine. Not long ago, a potential employer reached out to me about a job that sounded great and was only 3 hours from my family. Obviously not close enough for daycare help, but close enough that we could go overnight or for a weekend with no problem. I told them no thanks largely because I just like the other factors about where I live a lot and that outweighs the distance.

[bagtagley]

We chose to live close enough to family that we could drive to visit, but far enough that they’d never just pop in. We moved from SLC to a place with great, easy access riding and mediocre, easy access skiing that was three hours away from the folks. Zero regrets. It was great to have support and easily be able to visit when the kids were young, but a factor we hadn’t considered was when we’d have to support the parents and how great it’s been being able to do that relatively easily.

I do miss easy access to good skiing, but proximity to a good airport was another part of our decision.

[lowsparkco]

I think mental health counseling really hit a break through with the whole tele health revolution during the pandemic.

I’m not a huge believer in doing a zoom for just anything, but I think counseling is one of those things that can really be effectively done remotely.

It nearly takes the whole I can’t find the time or a therapist I connect with argument out of the equation.

[muted reborn]

I resonate with this a decent amount and feel like I fall on my sword 9 times out of ten with these situation. That's not to say I blame or resent the situation/imbalance with my wife, but I accept that she doesn't have the faculties to stay 100% on it as a individual+spouse+professional+parent, day in and day out, and stay sane. My job is pretty easy and flexible; even on the shittiest, hard days I can rally and do the whole dance till bedtime, as needed. She needs time and space and I try to support her by sometimes pushing her out the door to bike, ski etc. I've known for a long time that I was going to have to take on a lot of the heavy lifting, sacrifice my own time/escapes and just "suck it up" to make the whole show go round every day. It sucks, but I came to terms with it as what's best for my spouse and the kids, and I've found ways to create new forms of balance and time for myself, personally.

Amen. When it got almost too much for me was during lockdown - I will break my rule here about getting too personal about info about my family/wife - but she for many good reasons hard a very very hard time during this period so my choice was either I stood up and was the rock for us, or our family fell apart. I was running a biz at the time so to say the least I was a bit frayed and stressed hahahahaaaaa.....but but as someone said earlier, maybe JuniorJoe, you gotta just suck it up sometimes even when you don't want to. Because 'this too shall pass' and all that bullshit trope is actually true.

And if it's not true for you, god speed you are in some serious shit.

[yeahman]

Living near a trailhead is more important than living near family.

And if my kids ever have kids, I'm moving as far away from them as possible. My childcare days are over! [emoji1]