Building a sound proofing wall....?

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I have a client that has a ski rental condo and I do some handyman stuff for her. Ski rental = partying kids with ikon passes and the neighbors are pissed.

I already went down the whole rabbit hole with her about how sound absorbing panels don't really work at all. She had me install some anyway.

Guess what? Still noise complaints.

Anyone have experience with a setup like this? Any reason I couldn't install right over the existing drywall and then add entire new layer of 1/2" or 5/8" dw on the hat track?



Add some think insulation behind hat track or think the air gap will be enough?

I am trying to not rip into the existing walls and do this job as quickly and as cleanly as possible. Almost positive they have the textured dw that everyone has in MT so I don't have to sand the new stuff.

[UTpowder]

I’m an audiologist and spend a lot of time testing people’s hearing. When I set up office I wanted a custom sized sound booth as well as one that I could easily get a wheelchair into. I ended up using this stuff sandwiched between two layers of drywall.

https://www.greengluecompany.com

It’s worked worked fairly well. I have to have the booth certified every year and the guy that does say it’s better then a lot of the commercial made sound booths he’s tested . I also blew in cellulose insulation into all interior walls during the remodel. That probably won’t help you but the green glue stuff might.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I’m an audiologist and spend a lot of time testing people’s hearing. When I set up office I wanted a custom sized sound booth as well as one that I could easily get a wheelchair into. I ended up using this stuff sandwiched between two layers of drywall.

https://www.greengluecompany.com

It’s worked worked fairly well. I have to have the booth certified every year and the guy that does say it’s better then a lot of the commercial made sound booths he’s tested . I also blew in cellulose insulation into all interior walls during the remodel. That probably won’t help you but the green glue stuff might.

Do you think using this glue with new 5/8" drywall over the existing wall would work well enough? Skip the whole isolation clip and hat track deal?

[Core Shot]

Don’t question an audiologist

They hear dead people.

But yeah, green glue is magic sauce

[ctsmith]

The green glue or a mass loaded vinyl membrane with taped joints over the existing drywall then a new layer of drywall is a good method. When dealing with preventing sound transmission from space to space think of sound as water, the barrier has to be complete, so doors windows etc. all need to be addressed. You can have a wall with a really highly STC rating but then if you have a door with a half inch gap at the bottom the sound will get through there.

[fleaches]

Could go the other way with this and try to drive the neighbors away https://xkcd.com/316/

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[::: :::]

When dealing with preventing sound transmission from space to space think of sound as water, the barrier has to be complete, so doors windows etc. all need to be addressed. You can have a wall with a really highly STC rating but then if you have a door with a half inch gap at the bottom the sound will get through there.

so much this ^^^

also, the frequency you are trying to mitigate matters too

low rumble road noise often comes through the frame, not windows/walls

[cdlv]

We built a sound proof wall for the head of the national archives in DC back in the late 90's. Basically steel framing with rubber dampers at the contact points then 3/4 drywall on both sides with egg crate foam in between.

[nickwm21]

Too add to the above - depending on how crazy you want to get... outlet or switch boxes often need to be treated with an STC puddy pad or similar. If an outlet is in the same stud bay as a switch on the opposite side of the wall that can be a path for sound.

There are also expensive drywall products like quietrock that will make a huge difference too...


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[Gepeto]

On your way to getting to zero attenuation...

3qtr ply run railroad on c-channel both sides. Then fill with sand.
Just 1 course; sand to 36"

This is a studio spec and will make a 7 fold difference

You could just build a knee wall version (4'?) and end up with a ledge after you rock it.

Finish the upper half as detailed above.

eta: punching through existing electrical? Just relocate to above the new ledge.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I'm trying to not cost the clients too much.

I'm thinking new dw backed with greenglue staggered to not line up with existing dw seams applied directly to the old dw. No hat track/c channel/clips etc. Just literally glue the new dw to the old dw with the greenglue, screw in place, texture, paint.

Yes/no?

[RShea]

They make a mineral wool insulation batting that may help also between the drywall. Much better than just air gap that you asked about. Ceiling, floor and as mentioned any electrical or low voltage wall plates and outlets can allow the noise through also.

[Gepeto]

edumakated opinions? this is de trg...

mine? you're going to get a modicum of improvment.


Be sure the client has a realistic understanding of not spending much.

Give them multiple costs/ways.

Juxtapose the cost to the amount of bitching from the long term tenant they are willing to tolerate

[EWG]

I'm trying to not cost the clients too much.

I'm thinking new dw backed with greenglue staggered to not line up with existing dw seams applied directly to the old dw. No hat track/c channel/clips etc. Just literally glue the new dw to the old dw with the greenglue, screw in place, texture, paint.

Yes/no?

No. Hat channel.

Everything that everyone has said is right, but there’s another issue. Drywall acts like a drum. You need the two membranes of drywall to vibrate independently. If you glue them together it doesn’t force independent vibration. That’s why you use the hat channels. But make sure when you screw the new drywall into the hat channels it does not screw through into the old drywall.

There are two kinds of sound you need to block. High frequencies are blocked by mass - the drywall and glue do that. That’s measured by something called STC. Lower frequencies - impacts and bass in music - are blocked by differential vibration. That’s why you need the hat channel. That’s measured with IIC.

Adding some batt insulation between the drywall planes will help deaden both a bit.

As mentioned above you also have to seal up every nook and cranny with caulk or sealer or foam seals.

For what it’s worth this isn’t conjecture. The US Gypsum Association publishes a manual for sound transfer through walls to guide building code compliance. Generally, hat channel is required for all assemblies to meet even the minimum codes (though it can go away with really serious performance walls.) it’s available online if you want to look through. It’s also a fire rating manual so don’t be concerned when you see that.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code....GA-600-09.pdf

Happy to answer any questions.

[Yanos]

No. Hat channel.

Everything that everyone has said is right, but there’s another issue. Drywall acts like a drum. You need the two membranes of drywall to vibrate independently. If you glue them together it doesn’t force independent vibration. That’s why you use the hat channels. But make sure when you screw the new drywall into the hat channels it does not screw through into the old drywall.

There are two kinds of sound you need to block. High frequencies are blocked by mass - the drywall and glue do that. That’s measured by something called STC. Lower frequencies - impacts and bass in music - are blocked by differential vibration. That’s why you need the hat channel. That’s measured with IIC.

Adding some batt insulation between the drywall planes will help deaden both a bit.

As mentioned above you also have to seal up every nook and cranny with caulk or sealer or foam seals.

For what it’s worth this isn’t conjecture. The US Gypsum Association publishes a manual for sound transfer through walls to guide building code compliance. Generally, hat channel is required for all assemblies to meet even the minimum codes (though it can go away with really serious performance walls.) it’s available online if you want to look through. It’s also a fire rating manual so don’t be concerned when you see that.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code....GA-600-09.pdf

Happy to answer any questions.

Architect father having tried different products through the years agrees with hat channel making the most difference for the dollar (z channel for ceilings)

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[climberevan]

EWG has it right. The channel plus rubber clips for the second layer create the isolation you need. Air sealing is also critical.

I built a pro recording studio years ago, and the wall assemblies were 17" thick. Each room was on separate foundations with air gaps. It worked.

Using some of that knowledge I've done soundproofing for regular clients. The hat channel is the best bang for buck. Quietrock is much like 2 layers with GG between, and won't work unless it's decoupled from the framing with hat channel and clips. No insulation between because you want the air gap. Be sure you don't screw through the new layer into the channel--screws only go into the rubber.

[Flounder]

Lots of great advice here. I’ve used green glue on quite a few secure rooms over the years and it does work. Hat channel would be a nice step up. I don’t think either of these solutions are going to help your client with their problem if your at just doing the adjoining wall.

I’ve spent a lot of time chasing specific STC ratings and it always comes down the weakest spot. It would help having more information on how the condo is laid out both above the ceiling and below the floor. You can make the adjoining wall completely sound proof but if noise gets into a common attic space or basement the neighbors will still complain. Doors and windows leak a lot of sound even when shut. Renter cracks opens window for fresh air, noise is an issue again.

Frankly I don’t see this as a situation where you can be successful. Neighbors are already hyper tuned for noise and short of building out like climbervan did, sound is still going to be an issue.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Thanks for all the good input guys. These buildings are a super weird layout. The neighboring studio unit that is complaining has their bed right up against the wall areas surrounded with the black box. The unit I am working on is a 2/3 bed loft unit. The area above the black horizontal line is a 3rd unit.



Complaining studio unit is 440sf. They can't really "get away" from the sound. Sadly it's a mix of some longtime residents and alot of ski rental aka loud places like the unit in the pic. They were built in 1974 with notoriously thin walls.

Doubling up that entire wall most likely won't fix the issue and gonna cost them a lot. They pay very well hourly.

[MTT]

This is how I am doing it.

It works very well. But APITA
above the ceiling

[splat]

I built a small two-screen movie theater in a warehouse in Santa Cruz once. The screens were divided by a soundproof wall designed by an architect whose plans I built from. It was 20 feet high and 60 feet long. I built it in three twenty-foot sections. Got a pic of it here before it was totally rocked.

More importantly, the plates were 2x12s and the studs were offset 2x6s, so one set of studs on one side of the plate were for one side of the wall and... you got it. Architect said it prevented a direct avenue for sound to travel through. Insulated fully, on both sides I hung the rock on those aluminum channels (forget what they're called); then I hung 5/8 both sides but added either 1/4 or 1/2 rock on one side.

[EWG]

Exactly. And WG doesn’t have the separate set of studs on each side so he has to use the hat channel/rubber isolators.


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[Harry]

PM Montucky/AustinFromSA

When he lived in Big Sky he owned a high end stereo shop that he installed a demo home theater in. Outrageous bass, and thanks to his soundproofing the neighboring businesses heard nothing.

He sold the business as is, the soundproofing is probably still there, maybe you can buy it from the current owner ? If nothing else, maybe he can tell you who to contact in Bozeman.


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[Whiteroom_Guardian]

PM Montucky/AustinFromSA

When he lived in Big Sky he owned a high end stereo shop that he installed a demo home theater in. Outrageous bass, and thanks to his soundproofing the neighboring businesses heard nothing.

He sold the business as is, the soundproofing is probably still there, maybe you can buy it from the current owner ? If nothing else, maybe he can tell you who to contact in Bozeman.


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Good to know. Thanks.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I'm wondering if i bit off more than I can chew. I have 5 days to do this job solo. Will involve a couple receptacles and switches having to be bumped out, taping/sanding (unfortunately I am pretty sure this condo has smooth finished DW and not the "montana mud" job or whatever they call it that seems to be in every property here....even brand new high end stuff), paint etc.

Not to mention they will lose 4-6" in a super small "livingroom" anyway.

As much as I want the job I feel like telling the owners they may want to just pay the one sensitive neighbor $2500 to buy some bose headphones or something......kidding not kidding.