Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[fool]

Thanks supermoon for the protein rec.

I don’t have any book suggestions, I’ve mostly built my knowledge and opinions through the internet. Lots of little pieces over a couple decades. Your three hours of strength is plenty and my opinion on cardio stuff is, generally, one hard workout a week, one long endurance session a week, and then as much base volume as you can fit in. Life throws too much at me to try to stick to some complicated training calendar, but my “plan” got me to a sub-3 marathon, sub 9 Leadville MTB and had me on track for probably a 22 hour Leadville run if my knees had held up.

I’m not fully up to speed on all the hormonal interactions that make it way too easy to eat an entire pizza followed by a pint of ice cream but it’s clear from looking at the general population how dangerous ultra-processed hyper-palatable foods are and how easy it is to overdo it. There’s clearly more to it than carbs+fat together = obesity or the French would be a profoundly unhealthy population. I just try to pay attention to it when I’m planning what I’m going to eat.

Got it - makes sense. The strength is mostly for fun since I got a bit burnt out on running the last few years. I'll likely knock it down to two hours/week as I add in more cycling. And on the endurance front, my running coach provided a similar structure that allowed for some awesome trail runs, including a sub-24 Headlands Hundred. I think I saw your blog on Leadman at some point - I may have to give that a try in the future.

Makes total sense on hyper-palatable foods and being intentional with our choices.

[Dantheman]

Lactate may play a key role in brain development and cognition: https://neurosciencenews.com/lactate...lopment-23686/

[XtrPickels]

Lactate may play a key role in brain development and cognition: https://neurosciencenews.com/lactate...lopment-23686/

Good find!

Inigo stresses whenever possible that lactate can often act as a hormone within the body and has implications far beyond exercise metabolism. At some point lactate needs to cast aside it's shackles of "exercise waste-product" so that we can better understand it's role within the body. Unfortunately most, if not all, university programs continually peg it as a one-trick-pony.

We have a Nerd-Lab review of George Brooks' work coming up that will hopefully talk about some of this.

[buttahflake]

So that feeling when my legs feel like they’re bubbling in a vat of acid, is good for my brain? Huh, how bout that.

[Dantheman]

Good find!

Inigo stresses whenever possible that lactate can often act as a hormone within the body and has implications far beyond exercise metabolism. At some point lactate needs to cast aside it's shackles of "exercise waste-product" so that we can better understand it's role within the body. Unfortunately most, if not all, university programs continually peg it as a one-trick-pony.

We have a Nerd-Lab review of George Brooks' work coming up that will hopefully talk about some of this.

It's also an important driver for muscle protein synthesis, right? What are the odds lactate is actually at least as important as something like AMPK?

[XtrPickels]

It's also an important driver for muscle protein synthesis, right? What are the odds lactate is actually more important than something like AMPK?

The whole system is so complex. We're talking with John Hawley on Thursday about P53 as a regulator for PGC1A. I don't know that anyone would ever be able to quantify if something is more or less important. Depending on the person, situation, training status, goals some aspects will be rate-limiting for performance and adaptation. Change any of the variables and another step / molecule / structure will be the limiting factor.

Still so much to learn.

[bean]

Good find!

Inigo stresses whenever possible that lactate can often act as a hormone within the body and has implications far beyond exercise metabolism. At some point lactate needs to cast aside it's shackles of "exercise waste-product" so that we can better understand it's role within the body. Unfortunately most, if not all, university programs continually peg it as a one-trick-pony.

We have a Nerd-Lab review of George Brooks' work coming up that will hopefully talk about some of this.

This (by George Brooks) is a great read on lactate. Not a quick read though.

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.c....1113/JP280955

[Dantheman]

The whole system is so complex. We're talking with John Hawley on Thursday about P53 as a regulator for PGC1A. I don't know that anyone would ever be able to quantify if something is more or less important. Depending on the person, situation, training status, goals some aspects will be rate-limiting for performance and adaptation. Change any of the variables and another step / molecule / structure will be the limiting factor.

Still so much to learn.

Yeah, I edited my post to soften that statement but you were too quick.

This (by George Brooks) is a great read on lactate. Not a quick read though.

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.c....1113/JP280955

Whoa, that will take some time to work through.

[fool]

Any suggestions for lower back strength? My lower back occasionally gets fatigued on descents in the drops for 2+ hour rides. It's nothing terrible but something I'd like to address. Tips?

I'm currently lifting twice a week - press, deadlift, squat, etc. - and a bit of core work (planks, SL RDLs, etc.) but clearly I'm missing something. When I ran a lot I had a ~10-minute bodyweight post-run routine (clamshells, Jane Fondas, glute bridges, etc.) - is there a similar suggested workout for cycling core strength? TIA.

[climberevan]

I do a bunch of work on the back extension fixture at the gym. I use a 10-12# bean bag on the back of my head and kind of move all around. Up, down, sideways, etc... The idea is to work those"hold up the torso while riding" low back extensor muscles. I think it works, and it's somehow way easier to motivate for than "supermans" on the floor.

I also do planking rows--start from a close grip pushup position on dumbells. Pull up one at a time like a bent-over row, but you're forced to really engage your core to stay in balance. The closer together your feet are the harder it gets. You don't need heavy weights--for me 20# is enough to throw me off balance. Of course regular planks are good too, so I do those after the other stuff.

We should probably all do more core work, but 2x/week with my other gym visits is all I end up managing.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Any suggestions for lower back strength? My lower back occasionally gets fatigued on descents in the drops for 2+ hour rides. It's nothing terrible but something I'd like to address. Tips?

I'm currently lifting twice a week - press, deadlift, squat, etc. - and a bit of core work (planks, SL RDLs, etc.) but clearly I'm missing something. When I ran a lot I had a ~10-minute bodyweight post-run routine (clamshells, Jane Fondas, glute bridges, etc.) - is there a similar suggested workout for cycling core strength? TIA.

Are you confident the issue is lack of strength?

Other possibilities:

- Over use. If those twice a week exercises aren’t just maintenance at lower reps, and less than max capacity, but actually pushing for gains, maybe you’re just overloading your lower back?

- Flexibility. Are you stretching regularly?

- Bike fit. Nose up saddle rocks your pelvis back and stresses lower back. Saddle too low can also stress lower back.

[bennymac]

I found this book good - 200 pages deep dive into core exercises for cyclists - but has easy to follow progressive programs to follow



Plus the forward is written by McDreamy

[J. Barron DeJong]

From ‘Bike Fit’ by Phil Burt (Team Sky). The book does outline a recommended core routine, and it’s not intense. Should be able to find a downloadable PDF of the book if you do a google search:

BUSTING THE CORE MYTH
For a number of years you won’t have been able
to read a fitness magazine without coming across numerous articles extolling the importance of core strength and core stability. Even in cycling-specific publications, stability ball work and other core- focused exercises have been touted as universally beneficial for preventing back pain and improving cycling performance.
I believe that we need to clear away the hype surrounding the core and reassess its role and importance to cycling.

WHERE IT ALL CAME FROM
In the 1990s research in Australia suggested that weakness in one small muscle of the body’s trunk, the transverse abdominus (TrA), was responsible
for the majority of low back pain. With back pain such a prevalent complaint in modern society, the physiotherapy world jumped on this universal cure- all, the fitness industry followed and the core stability craze began. Small, precise and isolated movements that targeted the TrA were not only being prescribed for people suffering from back injuries but for fitness enthusiasts and athletes searching for performance gains and injury prevention.

THE PROBLEM
One of the biggest issues with isolating the TrA is
that it doesn’t actually work in isolation. It works with every other muscle that makes up the abdominal
wall in multiple roles, of which spinal stabilisation
is only one. Follow-up research has failed to
show any conclusive link between back pain and weakness of the TrA in isolation. Even when patients have recovered from bad backs after performing TrA-focused rehabilitation, it’s not clear whether
the exercises were responsible. They might have improved anyway due to rest, and avoiding performing the activities that were aggravating their backs.
There’s also the placebo effect to consider.
The benefits of these extremely narrowly focused, reductionist and often lying-down exercises to
sports performance are even less clear. They have their place in a rehabilitation scenario but, in other sporting contexts, have been mis-sold. Knowing how to prescribe and progress them requires in-depth knowledge and an extremely intensive approach. For the vast majority of time-starved cyclists, who already have reasonable functional fitness for cycling and life in general, time spent on these types of exercises without detailed instruction is often time wasted.

APPLES HAVE CORES, CYCLISTS DON’T
Within British Cycling, the phrase ‘core stability’ is no longer used and instead ‘functional trunk strength’ and ‘robustness’ are the watchwords. Functional trunk strength and coordination is what is needed to be able to pedal strongly and perform on-the-bike tasks such as putting on a rain cape. Robustness is the capacity to absorb training and avoid injury both on and off the bike.
If you imagine performance as being a pyramid, cycling-specific fitness is the point at the very top. Relevant strength work might not directly benefit your performance on the bike but it will indirectly – by building a wider base of robustness and conditioning to your pyramid. This in turn will allow your point to rise higher through an improved ability to cope with consistent training and avoiding layoffs due to injury.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR ME?
As a sportive rider, aspiring racer or seasoned clubperson, you’re probably already able to ride your bike for multiple hours and perform the day-to-day tasks and movements that your non-cycling life involves. If this is the case, then the exercises that
are typically prescribed for ‘core strengthening’ will have little relevance or benefit to you. Even if you
do sometimes suffer from a sore back on the bike, this can be inevitable after a tough few hours in the saddle, and down to your position on the bike or due to factors completely unrelated to cycling. If back pain is limiting you either on or off the bike, consult with an appropriately qualified professional. Devoting your valuable time to exercises that are not proven to help with either back problems or cycling performance is pointless.

[fool]

Thanks all for the feedback.

Are you confident the issue is lack of strength?

Other possibilities:

- Over use. If those twice a week exercises aren’t just maintenance at lower reps, and less than max capacity, but actually pushing for gains, maybe you’re just overloading your lower back?

- Flexibility. Are you stretching regularly?

- Bike fit. Nose up saddle rocks your pelvis back and stresses lower back. Saddle too low can also stress lower back.

Good point. No, I'm not confident it is a lack of strength. It could be overuse but seems doubtful, as I usually have a few days between my lifting and riding. I'm not a regular stretcher - research that I've followed shows it's 50/50 in terms of effectiveness (in running, at least) - but my hammies and lower back are usually tight, so that might be it. It's worth a try. And will reexamine bike fit as well. Thanks.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

If you're into power numbers, Payson McElveen spends the end of this podcast going through Keegan's absolutely absurd power during his record-setting Leadville 100 race. There's some wild stuff in there too - like he held 6.1w/kg for an hour on Columbine with 2.5 hours of racing already in his legs.

Who knows if they're right, but Peyson and Lachlan Morton's opinion is that, at altitude, Sepp Kuss (and not JV or Tadje) is likely the only bike rider in the world right now who might have been able to keep up with Keegan at Leadville.

[ironhippy]

If you're into power numbers, Payson McElveen spends the end of this podcast going through Keegan's absolutely absurd power during his record-setting Leadville 100 race. There's some wild stuff in there too - like he held 6.1w/kg for an hour on Columbine with 2.5 hours of racing already in his legs.

Who knows if they're right, but Peyson and Lachlan Morton's opinion is that, at altitude, Sepp Kuss (and not JV or Tadje) is likely the only bike rider in the world right now who might have been able to keep up with Keegan at Leadville.

It's ridiculous that, at that level, he just rode them off his wheel. I'm going to try to listen to this tomorrow, thanks for posting.

[bean]

It’s known that NSAIDs have a negative effect on adaptations to training. Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to avoid their use for a while. When is the most critical time to not have them in effect in your system?

X hours after training, the next night’s sleep, etc.?

[XtrPickels]

It’s known that NSAIDs have a negative effect on adaptations to training. Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to avoid their use for a while. When is the most critical time to not have them in effect in your system?

X hours after training, the next night’s sleep, etc.?

Most research, AFAIK, is on acute ingestion either just prior or after the bout of exercise. I'm not aware of any studies that look at ingestion disassociated from exercise.

With that said, the half life is ~2-4 hours for acetaminophen & ibuprofen, which means that half will be eliminated in that time frame. A best practice, if maximizing adaptation is the goal is likely to not consume within 4 hours prior, but longer is likely better.

COX-2, which has a role in protein synthesis and is inhibited by NSAIDS is elevated both 4 and 24 hours post exercise. Presumably the entire time period is important, which means there may not be a good time to take meds following exercise.

So, all that begs the question: Does it matter?

I'm going to say "Don't worry about it". If you need to take the NSAIDS than there is something happening that is more important than maximizing adaptation. If you don't have to take the NSAIDS, then you shouldn't take the NSAIDS.

NSAIDS work best when they are at a constant level within your body. Therefore a lower dose more often (but within recommendations) is better than a bigger dose but only once per day. Best treatment practice is antagonistic to any recommendation based on adaptation.

With all that said, try different NSAIDs, I had a lower back / sciatic issue that bothered me for a year. Ibuprofen would help, but after a couple days of taking Naproxen it's all but gone.

[bean]

So, all that begs the question: Does it matter?

I'm going to say "Don't worry about it". If you need to take the NSAIDS than there is something happening that is more important than maximizing adaptation. If you don't have to take the NSAIDS, then you shouldn't take the NSAIDS.

Fortunately ibuprofen works well to relieve the pain, unfortunately there’s nothing that’s going to be fixed by taking them and it’s purely for pain management. Which, fortunately, means that I can get maximum gainz by toughing it out.

Do you have an idea of how much of training adaptations are inhibited by NSAID use? Potentially different between cardio and strength? What’s the most important time window post-exercise for COX-2 function? Might make the decision easier (or harder) when I’m struggling to walk up a flight of stairs.

Thanks for the insights.

[bennymac]

If you’re just looking for pain control then acetaminophen will do that with out it being a NSAID

[bean]

If you’re just looking for pain control then acetaminophen will do that with out it being a NSAID

Doesn't work as well, unfortunately.

[bennymac]

Gotcha.

[MegaStoke]

I’ve ramped my on the bike training up to about 20hrs a week, and am starting to experience some pain going into the top of my kneecap on the medial side, especially after 6hr+ rides. I’m going to see a fitter next week to make sure my bike fit is 100% dialed, but any exercises or stretches that might help would be appreciated.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I’ve ramped my on the bike training up to about 20hrs a week, and am starting to experience some pain going into the top of my kneecap on the medial side, especially after 6hr+ rides. I’m going to see a fitter next week to make sure my bike fit is 100% dialed, but any exercises or stretches that might help would be appreciated.

QUADS
This muscle group at the front of your thighs consists
of four muscles, the rectus femoris, vastus lateralis,
vastus medialis and sartorius. The rectus femoris
especially is responsible for driving your pedals
around but, if allowed to become too tight, can have
an adverse effect on both posture and biomechanics,
resulting in lower back pain and potentially hip and
knee problems.

• Lie face down in a front plank position (with your
forearms under your shoulders and your toes on
the floor) with one thigh on the roller.
• Bend the knee of the leg being rolled and hook
it behind the ankle of the other leg to hold it in
position.
• Roll up and down the full length of your thigh from
the top of your hips to just above the knee.



From: Bike Fit by Phil Burt (Team Sky). Knee pain is discussed on page 104.

Download: https://www.circuitoultras.org/wp-co...ePositionl.pdf

Regarding fit:

[dan_pdx]

, just had a post get vanished, I guess that was the mods telling me to be more concise.

I'm in reasonably crappy shape and want to train for a 150 miles/10k feet of climbing ride in late July (RAMROD). For the time being I'd like to keep it to 3 days a week, no more than 6 hours/week. I'm thinking two interval workouts/TGR rides or other harder workouts during the week, and then a long slow ride on the weekend. Then I'd ramp up my time in March or so.

Any suggestions, recommendations, or hilarious comments?