Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[XtrPickels]

Here's a "tag-on" question to what I posted a page or two ago regarding splitting up Zone 2 training: how consistent does the riding have to be in Zone 2 for it to be beneficial? For instance, can I go for a regular trail ride at a slower pace and still get the endurance-based benefits? (For example, a 25 mile ride in the mountains where it's typically an hour climb, then a 15-20 min descent, and repeat) How does that compare to a standard road or gravel ride that's 2-3 hours of steady pedaling, and does it matter if the Zone 2 efforts are broken up by descents? Just trying to figure out if I always have to be on the road for Zone 2 / Endurance training, or if I can mix it up with some XC-type riding as well.

Breaking it up with the recovery is fine. In many aspects "more is better", so you losing out on the training time economy but frankly I'd rather be on my mountain bike than my road bike so personally it's a trade off I'm willing to take.

I agree with DTM in that the biggest issue is actually staying in a "base" zone. If half your ride is at threshold and the other half at recovery when descending then you might have an average heart rate in your "base" zone, but you didn't actually do any work there. This is a fallacy that most riders need to understand.

Personally, I find it hard to stay in "base" at most local spots (Heil possible, Hall it's hard, LH + WR is impossible). That's why when I'm "training" I ride to those places easy, ride hard on the trails, then easy back home.

[smmokan]

I was thinking more along the lines of Buffalo Creek, Centennial Cone, maybe Betasso/Chapman etc... places with long, gradual/easy climbs where it's pretty easy to stay in a lower zone.

[Jtlange]

I was thinking more along the lines of Buffalo Creek, Centennial Cone, maybe Betasso/Chapman etc... places with long, gradual/easy climbs where it's pretty easy to stay in a lower zone.

If you really hate yourself, just go ride Marshall Mesa. Thats what I do, granted its on a gravel bike...

[bean]

it takes close to 2h to do the routine I've come up with, especially with all of the 3+min rests between 5 rep sets.

Two hours for a single lifting session suggests to me that you're trying to do too much. Guessing you've got 25+ sets in there? I'm interested to see what your routine is, guarantee you can make it a lot more efficient. I do a PPL split and each session takes about an hour depending on how much I'm playing on my phone. 3+ minute rests every set is excessive as well and somewhere you can make up time.

[EWG]

Two hours for a single lifting session suggests to me that you're trying to do too much. Guessing you've got 25+ sets in there? I'm interested to see what your routine is, guarantee you can make it a lot more efficient. I do a PPL split and each session takes about an hour depending on how much I'm playing on my phone. 3+ minute rests every set is excessive as well and somewhere you can make up time.

I agree with the length of time. I also wonder what kind of reps you are doing. I have found, over time, that due to my high endurance load during any given week (biking, soccer etc) I do better with low reps/high weights than with the opposite. My theory is that it keeps me from going into an aerobic/anaerobic place because the set is over so fast, and therefor it doesn't add to my cardio training load, and I can recover faster. Think 6 reps instead of 20.

But, let's be honest, all these high/low rep and power/strength debates are really messing with the margins of the benefits of weight training. Will a certain program be 10% better than another? Yes, probably. But what really matters is accessing that 90%. And you can get there in a really small amount of time. For example:

2 days per week lower body, split up these exercises between those two days, and do 3-4 sets of 6-8 reps relatively heavy: squats, deadlifts, hip thrust, split leg glute focused squats, lunges, side lunges

And then 2 days per week for upper body with the same rep/set rules (split these moves up into the two days): bench press, incline bench, bent over row, standing row, overhead press, lat raises, curls, tricep extensions

And you'll get 80% of the benefit of weight training compared to someone on a really prescribed, curated plan that takes 4 times longer. Oh yeah - do some abs now and then too.

[XtrPickels]

I was thinking more along the lines of Buffalo Creek, Centennial Cone, maybe Betasso/Chapman etc... places with long, gradual/easy climbs where it's pretty easy to stay in a lower zone.

Your thinking is spot-on.

[climberevan]

What's that routine?
Remember, this is also about the long game. Galpin's twin study and the other study he cited of lifelong Norwegian XC skiers is pretty unequivocal--if you don't lift by the time you are collecting Social Security you will have the same amount of muscle and strength as non-exercisers, and maybe even less!

Per Galpin, training for power has a much lower recovery load that training for pure strength, so consider biasing your program in that direction.

Two hours for a single lifting session suggests to me that you're trying to do too much. Guessing you've got 25+ sets in there? I'm interested to see what your routine is, guarantee you can make it a lot more efficient. I do a PPL split and each session takes about an hour depending on how much I'm playing on my phone. 3+ minute rests every set is excessive as well and somewhere you can make up time.

Thanks guys. I really do appreciate the advice. I have a solid handle on how to train to get faster on the bike/skis/foot, but weight training is a foreign land for me.

We're 100% in on the long-term benefits of weight training, and that's the main motivator for going to the gym in the first place. I'm also not worried about gaining a little weight if it's muscle that helps me in the long run, even if it does slow me down on the bike. The long game is more important than 30 seconds on a 40 minute climb.

Here's the context for our JONG gym going: we've been going pretty reliably 2x/wk since Sept of last year. Ms CE has been doing a lot of high-rep stuff, and is ready to start building strength. Her big goal is to be able to do a couple of pullups (she's always had a very weak upper body). I've been doing a more rounded routine, which I'll outline below.

Existing:
5-8 min warmup on rowing machine or 30-45 mins running when trails are not snow covered
Deadlifts 3 sets 8 reps
Squats 3x8
calf raises 3x8 (2 types on one side only bc i'm trying to even out an imbalance due to knee injury)
1 leg step ups on box, weighted 3x8

Pullups 3x8
flat bench dumbell presses 3x8
incline bench dumbell presses 3x8
standing bent-over rows 3x8

planks 3x 60-90secs
plank rows 3x15
hyperextensions with weight behind neck 3x15
twisting side planks 3x12

I've been doing all of this with minimal rest between sets, and mostly super-setting opposite exercises. I rarely stop moving throughout, and it takes about 1 hour to do if all of the equipment is available when I want it. Weight-wise, I've been trying to make it pretty hard to do 8 reps, but with the thought that I usually have 1-2 reps in reserve.

Then I listened to Galpin's stuff with Huberman, and realized that the above routine is likely in the no-man's land between strength and hypertrophy in terms of sets/reps/weight. Really I'm focused on strength only (and even then, just maintenance since I don't think I need to be any stronger), hence the shift to the lower reps and longer rests between sets.

Looking at a program like Starting Strength, which includes very few different exercises, I thought it could be pretty streamlined. But the "warmup sets" and long rests between sets (recommended by SS and by Galpin, and others if one is doing 4-5 reps at a very high percentage of 1RM) really add up in terms of time. They do recommend splitting the exercises up across the days, but that's dependent on 3 days a week, which is unlikely for us.

New draft program, which we did last night and which took nearly 2h.

Warmup 5-8 mins on rower
Squats 3 warmup sets with progressively increasing weights
3 working sets very heavy 5 reps
Dead lift 3 warmup sets
1 working set very heavy 5 reps

Bench Press 3 warmup sets
3 working sets, 5reps
Military/overhead press 3 WU
3 working, 5 reps
Bent over rows 3 WU 3 working
Pull ups 3 sets 8 reps

Planks 3x
plank rows 3x12
hyperextension 3x12
calf raises 6x12

I guess this is probably just too much to do in one session. Should we split it up and just have 1 of each type of exercise per week? I don't really know how much overlap there is--like if we did squats on Tues and deadlift on Thurs, or flat bench on Tues, incline on Thurs, etc--does that work?

I really don't think going to the gym 3x is feasible as we often travel Fri-Sun and like to ride our bikes kind of a lot. For Ms CE, especially, the motivation well for riding is deep but for gym it's much shallower.

[XtrPickels]

If you really hate yourself, just go ride Marshall Mesa. Thats what I do, granted its on a gravel bike...

https://www.strava.com/activities/5069955928/overview

Snoop makes everything better. Sucks that his Deathrow albums aren't Spotify anymore.

[XtrPickels]

Thanks guys. I really do appreciate the advice. I have a solid handle on how to train to get faster on the bike/skis/foot, but weight training is a foreign land for me.

We're 100% in on the long-term benefits of weight training, and that's the main motivator for going to the gym in the first place. I'm also not worried about gaining a little weight if it's muscle that helps me in the long run, even if it does slow me down on the bike. The long game is more important than 30 seconds on a 40 minute climb.

Here's the context for our JONG gym going: we've been going pretty reliably 2x/wk since Sept of last year. Ms CE has been doing a lot of high-rep stuff, and is ready to start building strength. Her big goal is to be able to do a couple of pullups (she's always had a very weak upper body). I've been doing a more rounded routine, which I'll outline below.

Existing:
5-8 min warmup on rowing machine or 30-45 mins running when trails are not snow covered
Deadlifts 3 sets 8 reps
Squats 3x8
calf raises 3x8 (2 types on one side only bc i'm trying to even out an imbalance due to knee injury)
1 leg step ups on box, weighted 3x8

Pullups 3x8
flat bench dumbell presses 3x8
incline bench dumbell presses 3x8
standing bent-over rows 3x8

planks 3x 60-90secs
plank rows 3x15
hyperextensions with weight behind neck 3x15
twisting side planks 3x12

I've been doing all of this with minimal rest between sets, and mostly super-setting opposite exercises. I rarely stop moving throughout, and it takes about 1 hour to do if all of the equipment is available when I want it. Weight-wise, I've been trying to make it pretty hard to do 8 reps, but with the thought that I usually have 1-2 reps in reserve.

Then I listened to Galpin's stuff with Huberman, and realized that the above routine is likely in the no-man's land between strength and hypertrophy in terms of sets/reps/weight. Really I'm focused on strength only (and even then, just maintenance since I don't think I need to be any stronger), hence the shift to the lower reps and longer rests between sets.

Looking at a program like Starting Strength, which includes very few different exercises, I thought it could be pretty streamlined. But the "warmup sets" and long rests between sets (recommended by SS and by Galpin, and others if one is doing 4-5 reps at a very high percentage of 1RM) really add up in terms of time. They do recommend splitting the exercises up across the days, but that's dependent on 3 days a week, which is unlikely for us.

New draft program, which we did last night and which took nearly 2h.

Warmup 5-8 mins on rower
Squats 3 warmup sets with progressively increasing weights
3 working sets very heavy 5 reps
Dead lift 3 warmup sets
1 working set very heavy 5 reps

Bench Press 3 warmup sets
3 working sets, 5reps
Military/overhead press 3 WU
3 working, 5 reps
Bent over rows 3 WU 3 working
Pull ups 3 sets 8 reps

Planks 3x
plank rows 3x12
hyperextension 3x12
calf raises 6x12

I guess this is probably just too much to do in one session. Should we split it up and just have 1 of each type of exercise per week? I don't really know how much overlap there is--like if we did squats on Tues and deadlift on Thurs, or flat bench on Tues, incline on Thurs, etc--does that work?

I really don't think going to the gym 3x is feasible as we often travel Fri-Sun and like to ride our bikes kind of a lot. For Ms CE, especially, the motivation well for riding is deep but for gym it's much shallower.

In my opinion (which is knowledgeable, but not focused on strength athletes), if you're going to lift heavy you need to focus.
Gaining Strength is about recruiting as many fibers as possible and you do that by lifting heavy weights. You do that by being fresh.
Getting bigger is about making fibers tired and you do that by fatiguing with more reps.

Often when you're stacking similar exercises, the fatigue from the 1st prevents full fiber recruitment in the second. One could argue that both exercises are beneficial because they're recruiting different fibers (rows vs. pull ups), but in practice there's a "weakest link" that prevents the second exercise from being as effective.

For Example, your Triceps might be tired after your heavy bench press which limits how much your can shoulder press which limits how many deltoid (shoulder) fibers are recruited. Same thing with your biceps in rows and pull ups.

For cycling, which is more akin to a "vertical sport" (jumping) than a "horizontal sport" (sprinting), Squats likely have more efficacy as they tend to be more quad dominant than deadlifts.
So, I would boot deadlifts from the program and focus on squats. If you feel training is going well, add more reps, not more exercises.

Regarding the back, I think you should also choose one exercise that gets the most bang for your buck and that's likely Pull-ups.
If you wanted something more bike specific I'd do these seated with a wide grip and a low pulley.
If you wanted to do two, I'd try to reduce as much muscle cross-over as possible and do the wide grip, low pulley row (More Posterior delt, trap, teres,) and a narrow grip pull up (More Bicep and Lats)

I'd also question the calf raises, but that might be because mine already rub my seat stays...

[bean]

Thanks guys. I really do appreciate the advice. I have a solid handle on how to train to get faster on the bike/skis/foot, but weight training is a foreign land for me.

We're 100% in on the long-term benefits of weight training, and that's the main motivator for going to the gym in the first place. I'm also not worried about gaining a little weight if it's muscle that helps me in the long run, even if it does slow me down on the bike. The long game is more important than 30 seconds on a 40 minute climb.

Here's the context for our JONG gym going: we've been going pretty reliably 2x/wk since Sept of last year. Ms CE has been doing a lot of high-rep stuff, and is ready to start building strength. Her big goal is to be able to do a couple of pullups (she's always had a very weak upper body). I've been doing a more rounded routine, which I'll outline below.

Existing:
...

3x a week would be great but 2x is a lot better than 1x which is infinitely better than 0x. One lift per muscle group per week gets you 80% of the gainz that twice per week will. 2-3 sets of a specific exercise will get you 80% of the gainz that doing lots of sets will do. Two hour workouts are likely building more fatigue than anything else as you probably aren't getting a lot of quality work done in the second half of that workout.

30-45 minutes of running as a warmup is probably too much.

Don't just pick a weight and go to 8 reps, if you have 2 reps in reserve then go to 10 reps. Increase weight as necessary to stay in your rep range (including pullups). FWIW I like a mix of rep ranges, not sure if there's "real" science behind it but broscience supports it. Going purely to lower reps is going to reduce hypertrophy over getting in the 6-15 rep range, which will reduce strength gainz as it ultimately takes muscle to move weight.

Core-specific work (i.e. planks hyperextensions etc.) isn't really my jam but if you like doing it go for it. Eats up a lot of time in your routine though, and it's something you can do at home instead of at the gym to be more time-efficient. If you are planning on 2x a week I'd look at an upper/lower split, and if you get a 3rd day then great. Shoot for 12ish working sets and see how you feel, how much time it's taking, etc.

For example leg day would be your squats/deads portion, add some split squats/lunges (do these before to get more warmed up for the big stuff), bring your calf raises in, and add some hamstring work (RDLs for example). For squats consider going higher rep than you're currently doing. I actually do some sets of 20, plus some heavier stuff I only get 7-10 reps on. 8-15 is a good range to work in. My knees don't like super-heavy squats, and it's a risk for back injuries to go heavier too.

Then for upper body day, take your upper body stuff, add some dips, add some incline bench (do flat or incline with DBs, just because, pick whichever). Add some deltoid sets if you have time and motivation, low weight high rep. Tricep extensions are good too.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: never in the history of the world has anyone woken up one day and discovered that they accidentally got too jacked.

[Dantheman]

Her big goal is to be able to do a couple of pullups (she's always had a very weak upper body).

For that, she needs to eschew bands and assistance shit. I got AC doing full pullups for reps by doing unassisted static holds, partials and negatives from the top (careful with negatives starting out, they can create serious DOMS) and partials from the bottom. Totally legit to use a chin-up grip for both as well. AC got a full chin-up before she got a full pullup and it was a big help getting to the ultimate goal.

New draft program, which we did last night and which took nearly 2h.

Warmup 5-8 mins on rower
Squats 3 warmup sets with progressively increasing weights
3 working sets very heavy 5 reps
Dead lift 3 warmup sets
1 working set very heavy 5 reps

Bench Press 3 warmup sets
3 working sets, 5reps
Military/overhead press 3 WU
3 working, 5 reps
Bent over rows 3 WU 3 working
Pull ups 3 sets 8 reps

Planks 3x
plank rows 3x12
hyperextension 3x12
calf raises 6x12

I guess this is probably just too much to do in one session. Should we split it up and just have 1 of each type of exercise per week? I don't really know how much overlap there is--like if we did squats on Tues and deadlift on Thurs, or flat bench on Tues, incline on Thurs, etc--does that work?

Yeah, that's way too much. Do squats, bench, and pullups one workout and deads, OHP, and rows another. Do planks while watching TV, on your lunch break, etc. I'm not sure why you're even bothering with calf raises.

[bean]

I'd also question the calf raises, but that might be because mine already rub my seat stays...

I heard about a survey (like 20 years ago...could be complete garbage) that the body part men in Boulder are most self-conscious about is their calves. Rubbing them on seat stays is the price of greatness.

[smmokan]

If you really hate yourself, just go ride Marshall Mesa. Thats what I do, granted its on a gravel bike...

If I really hated myself, I'd go ride Heil Ranch.

[climberevan]

Haha. I've always had good calves, but after an ACL reconstruction my left is significantly smaller than the right, so I'm just trying to even them out. Yep, it's vanity.

Thanks for the other advice!

[fool]

I thought I read recently that 90secs of rest per set is reasonable for the 5-8 rep range, but maybe the Galpin podcast strongly recommends 3+ mins. I’ll need to listen, though 24 hours of podcast is a lot.

I’m lifting 3x/week but as build back into training for some type of endurance activity I might look at going 2x/week. Moving iron is fun so far though!

Per Galpin, training for power has a much lower recovery load that training for pure strength, so consider biasing your program in that direction.

Power is lower reps (3-7), strength is higher reps (6-10), right?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Dantheman]

I thought I read recently that 90secs of rest per set is reasonable for the 5-8 rep range, but maybe the Galpin podcast strongly recommends 3+ mins. I’ll need to listen, though 24 hours of podcast is a lot.

IIRC, he's actually not super prescriptive beyond ~2 minutes. The crux of the matter is that you should feel fully recovered between sets. Luckily only two of the 4-hr episodes are out so far and only the first one covers lifting so you have time to catch up

Power is lower reps (3-7), strength is higher reps (6-10), right?

Power and strength are both lower reps. Power uses a lower % of your 1RM (30-70%) and focuses on moving the weight as fast as you can with good form and control. He makes it very, very clear that if you are training for a sport that requires power more so than pure strength (e.g., inbounds skiing!) you absolutely need to train power specifically unless you're a total rank novice.

[bfree]

IIRC, he's actually not super prescriptive beyond ~2 minutes. The crux of the matter is that you should feel fully recovered between sets.

That's what I got from it too. In fact, he later stated you could get through a routine like this in 30 minutes after warmup, and there's no way that's happening with 3-5 minute breaks. I think 3-5 minutes just fell into the mnemonic, but 2 minutes is sufficient for non-professionals with time restrictions.

Similar story on "super-setting" aka fitting in an upper body workout during a break between lower body sets. Maybe not quite as good, but for the nonprofessional, it's very nearly as good and will save significant time.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Been in the gym 2x/week doing MTB specific with the enduro guys. Trainer bike only 2-3x per week but shorter Z2 rides, skiing 3-5 days a week (inbounds but decent amount of hiking involved).

Going to start my actual base phase tomorrow, then build phase in another 2 weeks. First race at the end of March.

Mon: 60-90 mins intensive weight training
Tues: 3x3 threshold intervals on the trainer
Weds: 60-90 mins intensive weight training
Thurs: 2 hour LSD trainer ride
Friday: "rest" aka skiing
Saturday: 3-4 hour LSD ride

Skiing any of these days when I don't have work. Last couple weeks I have been going hard already. My biggest struggle still is eating enough and the right stuff, sleeping enough, and stretching.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

For anyone looking: this is a crazy good deal on an SB20 + year of zwift (active junky also gets you another 4% off that price) is about to end.

My first SB20 had to be warrantied, but my second is going strong 2 years in. Gets ridden maybe 15-20 hours a week between three of us in my fam and has had zero issues.

[climberevan]

We seem to have finally left the never ending winter behind! Bikes are back on the menu after a lot of powder.

Ms CE has signed us up for the Lost & Found gravel race on 3 June. It will be by far her longest ride on any surface, and she's nervous! The good thing is that it's motivated her to actually train. 2 months isn't really much, but she's going to do as much volume as possible and focus on sweet spot and threshold intervals, as her main priority is finishing in a reasonable time, not duking it out at the front.
I'll be under prepared, but I'll get through it.

So she wants to find a solution for a power meter on her MTB. She's very skittish of clipless and will only use this one pair of super old and loose XT pedals that i retired bc they wouldn't hold me in. I suspect this means Garmin Rallys are out.

What are other good options I might be missing? She has SRAM carbon cranks. The 104bcd spider based PMS only allow 30t rings, and she likes 28. So it looks like a Stages arm or Rotor 2inpower crankset might be the only choices.

[XtrPickels]

I'd avoid a Stages like the plague - at least the 1 sided. The error makes them not worth it.

I can drop some Rally's in the mail if you want to try them. I have a set sitting in a drawer. Multi-release cleats may be helpful?

Can you do a 30t chainring and a different cassette?

[climberevan]

I'd avoid a Stages like the plague - at least the 1 sided. The error makes them not worth it.

I can drop some Rally's in the mail if you want to try them. I have a set sitting in a drawer. Multi-release cleats may be helpful?

Can you do a 30t chainring and a different cassette?

I do think she'd like the multi release cleats, and she'd be stoked to try out some Rallys before dropping the $$$.

She's already using a 10-51 Eagle, so....

Yeah, I think we're done with Stages too. My road one (on a Dura Ace arm) introduces like 10-15% error as the battery gets lower. WTF? I will prob swap it with a Rotor or maybe Favero pedals this season.

[joetron]

I worked there for a few years, so I’m a bit biased, but Rotor makes great stuff, and the crew in the Salt Lake office are super helpful if you ever have issues.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[gramboh]

New to training this year and trying to put together a plan. I have a Stages SB20 smart trainer with Zwift, a road bike with power meter and I mountain bike (for fun, no power/data). My goal is the Whistler Fondo in September and completing it under 4h30m (122km about 2000m vert). I plan to ride 5 days a week but am somewhat limited in time and only able to do one long ride a week, the rest are 60-90min. I could do the ride now but probably not at my goal pace, need to improve fitness to get there. I'm 5'10 200lbs, have lost 25lbs this year and plan to get under 190lbs by summer, 42 years old so not going to set the world on fire re: progress. FTP 303w on 20min ramp test a couple weeks ago but I feel like my power curve is weighted to shorter efforts from strength training background. On a 60min outdoor ride with I'd say 7.5-8/10 effort my avg power is 220-230w and normalized power is 275-280w.

My rough idea from limited knowledge/research was to do 2-3 trainer sessions a week focused on intervals, 1 long (3-4h) road bike ride on weekend morning, either focusing on endurance or 1000m hill climbs as I get closer to the Fondo, and 1-2 mountain bike rides for fun (mix of shuttling and pedaling).

What I am not sure about is where to focus the trainer rides on? Does it make sense to just do Sweet Spot sessions on the trainer? Or should I be varying with other work at different levels like threshold/vo2max intervals? I figure I'm around 8-10h riding a week and since I'm new to training don't need any recovery rides. Also assuming I will get enough zone 2 on my one long ride to address that part of fitness.

[fool]

New to training this year and trying to put together a plan. I have a Stages SB20 smart trainer with Zwift, a road bike with power meter and I mountain bike (for fun, no power/data). My goal is the Whistler Fondo in September and completing it under 4h30m (122km about 2000m vert).
My rough idea from limited knowledge/research was to do 2-3 trainer sessions a week focused on intervals, 1 long (3-4h) road bike ride on weekend morning, either focusing on endurance or 1000m hill climbs as I get closer to the Fondo, and 1-2 mountain bike rides for fun (mix of shuttling and pedaling).
[...]
I figure I'm around 8-10h riding a week and since I'm new to training don't need any recovery rides. Also assuming I will get enough zone 2 on my one long ride to address that part of fitness.

I'll be curious to hear what the collective shares but I've been watching a few of Dylan Johnson's videos lately and this one regarding 10hrs/week is likely a good starting point: https://youtu.be/-Wk0f-Bsw3E