Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[smmokan]

Anyone ever use a MTB-specific sports nutritionist? Any recommendations?

I’ve got some big stretches of tough rides this year and would love to learn more information on how to properly fuel training, rides, and recovery to maximize potential.

[bamboocoreONLY]

Anyone ever use a MTB-specific sports nutritionist? Any recommendations?

I’ve got some big stretches of tough rides this year and would love to learn more information on how to properly fuel training, rides, and recovery to maximize potential.

only recommendation I have is find one that isn't overpriced just for being "mtb specific". Funny thing to say but there's a bunch out there that way overcharge just because they claim their program is so much better for mtb training, but in reality most endurance coaches/nutritionists give you the same info for cheaper.

I'm in the same boat though, I'm planning on giving a go to some bigger XC races. I'd also like to give the CT a shot again and shave a few days off my last go. I'm lucky that a friend in town who has been coached before is starting his own program and letting me guenia pig it for him.

[smmokan]

Yeah, I didn't necessarily mean "MTB-specific", more like "experience with MTB".

[climberevan]

There's a LOT of info out there if you're willing to listen to some podcasts (Fast Talk, Trainer Road) and do a little reading (we've been over this stuff here). It basically boils down to: eat quality food with lots of vegetables, around 1.8g/kg of body in protein, and not much saturated fat.

When you're riding longer than an hour or going hard at all, consume 80-120g of sugar per hour. I use table sugar in bottles with 1g of salt, but gels are great too if you like spending a ton of money. Sucrose is already the right blend of sugars, but the commercial mixes and gels will also get you there.

Eat a big carby snack right after riding too, and then resume normal daily eating.

[bamboocoreONLY]

For xc races that are longer than 20 miles I run a top tube bag filled with Hawaiian sweet rolls with some jelly/prosciutto then just chow down on bites of em every half hour. Helps tremendously.

[climberevan]

For xc races that are longer than 20 miles I run a top tube bag filled with Hawaiian sweet rolls with some jelly/prosciutto then just chow down on bites of em every half hour. Helps tremendously.

You'd be even better off if you left out the prosciutto. Your digestive system absolutely can't deal with fat or protein when you're working hard. Sugar is what you need and anything else just sits in the gut and waits for you to finish the workout.

[bean]

I’ve got some big stretches of tough rides this year and would love to learn more information on how to properly fuel training, rides, and recovery to maximize potential.

What kind of rides are you planning? Bikepacking the Colorado trail? Racing the Breck Epic for a respectable placing? Ultimately it'll come down to training your gut to tolerate more carb intake during your ride. Carbs after riding for recovery, high protein intake up to 1g/lb of bodyweight per day spread out throughout the day. If you're doing shorter training workouts you probably won't need anything for those especially at base intensity.

I can't recommend anyone but there's someone who I bet will be along shortly to post who can.

[XtrPickels]

There's a LOT of info out there if you're willing to listen to some podcasts (Fast Talk, Trainer Road) and do a little reading (we've been over this stuff here). It basically boils down to: eat quality food with lots of vegetables, around 1.8g/#of body in protein, and not much saturated fat.

When you're riding longer than an hour or going hard at all, consume 80-120g of sugar per hour. I use table sugar in bottles with 1g of salt, but gels are great too if you like spending a ton of money. Sucrose is already the right blend of sugars, but the commercial mixes and gels will also get you there.

Eat a big carby snack right after riding too, and then resume normal daily eating.

{Insert Pithy Joke about Fast Talk Here}

Steve. If you want, hit me up and we can chat.

[XtrPickels]

What kind of rides are you planning? Bikepacking the Colorado trail? Racing the Breck Epic for a respectable placing? Ultimately it'll come down to training your gut to tolerate more carb intake during your ride. Carbs after riding for recovery, high protein intake up to 1g/lb of bodyweight per day spread out throughout the day. If you're doing shorter training workouts you probably won't need anything for those especially at base intensity.

I can't recommend anyone but there's someone who I bet will be along shortly to post who can.

The first sentence is what matter’s most. What are you doing? How long per stint, how many days in a row, what’s the intensity, what’s you opportunity to re-supply, what’s your outlook on food, etc.

One end of the spectrum is high carb intake (90+grams per hour), which is likely best for all-out performance but is difficult to achieve logistically (this is a lot to carry) and physiologically (you also need matching fluid consumption). The other end is to consume “food” but this likely necessitates both smart choices and a slower pace. “Optimal” is likely somewhere in the middle for the majority of people.

[smmokan]

{Insert Pithy Joke about Fast Talk Here}

Steve. If you want, hit me up and we can chat.

I actually checked out the FTL website, but it wouldn't allow me to contact Ryan to set up a consultation. (I'll shoot you an email in a minute)

Answering the question about me specifically - I'm not racing to compete, it's more just about feeling better on big rides and long multi-day stretches of riding. And maximizing nutritional value for training/off-season work (base training, lifting, etc). Between personal ride plans, the Trans BC, and my Chasing Epic trips, I really just want to feel better overall. Plus, I'm not getting any younger.

I can handle 5-6 days in a row of 25 miles and 3000'+ climbing fairly easily, but it's always nice when it doesn't feel as difficult and I have gas left in the tank at the end. Plus, I'd like to push the envelope a few times with bigger high-country rides once in a while, and don't want them to feel like a death march at the end of the day.

[climberevan]

I can handle 5-6 days in a row of 25 miles and 3000'+ climbing fairly easily, but it's always nice when it doesn't feel as difficult and I have gas left in the tank at the end. Plus, I'd like to push the envelope a few times with bigger high-country rides once in a while, and don't want them to feel like a death march at the end of the day.

25mi and 3000' of climbing day after day should be no problem if you're fairly fit. I suspect you're not fueling nearly enough. Back-to-back days get out of hand really quickly if you're running a deficit.

IDK if you have a power meter, but even if not maybe you have some sense of what the numbers mean. 150w average uses around 400kCal per hour, which is 100g of carbs! If 150w doesn't mean anything to you, that would be a VERY relaxed pace for most people who are decently fit. Even at 64kg I can average like 230W/hr if I'm really going for it. If you're heavier you might be surprised at how many calories you're actually burning.

100g/hr is a shitload of sugar, undoubtedly, and you'll want to work up to it. But you'll just convert it all into glucose immediately and then into forward motion. You won't get fat from fueling the work! In fact, eating a huge meal after a long ride is way worse from an overall health perspective than just giving your body what it needs WHEN it needs it.

[bamboocoreONLY]

You'd be even better off if you left out the prosciutto. Your digestive system absolutely can't deal with fat or protein when you're working hard. Sugar is what you need and anything else just sits in the gut and waits for you to finish the workout.

Hence why I need a coach haha I enjoy the salty punch it has but that can be replaced with something better I’m sure.

[bean]

150w average uses around 400kCal per hour, which is 100g of carbs! If 150w doesn't mean anything to you, that would be a VERY relaxed pace for most people who are decently fit.

At low intensities there will be more fat utilized than carbohydrate. I was on a metabolic cart while pedaling a couple of summers ago and at 180w I was burning 55g (220kcal) of CHO and 26g (234kcal) of fat per hour. But at 280w it was 200g (800kcal) CHO and only 9.3g (84kcal) fat per hour. Individual numbers will vary wildly depending on training, nutrition, and genetics.

For reference my FTP at the time was around 300w.

[climberevan]

At low intensities there will be more fat utilized than carbohydrate. I was on a metabolic cart while pedaling a couple of summers ago and at 180w I was burning 55g (220kcal) of CHO and 26g (234kcal) of fat per hour. But at 280w it was 200g (800kcal) CHO and only 9.3g (84kcal) fat per hour. Individual numbers will vary wildly depending on training, nutrition, and genetics.

For reference my FTP at the time was around 300w.

Certainly one uses more fat as a percentage of total, or maybe even in absolute terms, when one is going easy. That's not the point I was making above, though.

The salient point is that when you're exercising at any intensity above an easy walking pace, you're not DIGESTING any fat or protien, regardless of what you're burning for fuel. Thus, it doesn't make any sense to eat those things.

The whole "fat adapted" thing is at best only possible for a VERY small number of people and even for them only at low intensities (like 12+h pace). Basically everyone should fuel with carbs, and a lot of them. There's a reason why the best-funded, most studied, highest performance endurance athletes in the world (World Tour road racers) are now eating up to 150g of simple sugars an hour. And they are going faster than ever.

[bean]

That's not the point I was making above, though.

Regardless of what you meant to convey, you said when doing 150w you are using 100g of CHO per hour. Fat stores are effectively unlimited even for the leanest of us. When doing along at truly-easy efforts (e.g. 150w for someone fit) there is no need to try to cram in 100g/hr of sugar. Half of that is more than adequate and potentially unnecessary depending on the duration and efforts on previous/upcoming days.

[smmokan]

No offense guys, but this is exactly why I want to talk with someone specifically about my personal situation and goals. Plus, I want to find out more about how to fuel/eat during training (base miles, intervals, lifting sessions, etc) and maybe how to change my diet in general.

[bamboocoreONLY]

^I think that's the hardest part, is finding someone who can work with you about what works for YOUR body. Let us know if you end up finding something you like, would be keen to hear your thoughts since I know you ride very similarly to what I do with your business (except the xc races that I sometimes do)

[Tailwind]

Personal experience. I did the Colorado trail a few years ago at a quick but not fast 9 day pace.

I tried to calculate “okay 10 hours of moving time per day, hopefully I can metabolize ____ from fat and then I’ll intake _____ calories per hour”. The built daily snacks for my wife and I. We did mostly carbs with a little protein. About 1500 calories per day of drinks.

It worked fine for 6 days. Day 7-9 that wasn’t working at all. A few things I messed up.
1. We were eating breakfast at 6 and dinner around 7:30. Our moving pace was a bit slower than anticipated with some delays + breaks. We needed more food for early evening prior to dinner.
2. I think we were getting like 20% of the protein we needed.
3. Our bodies didn’t respond well to liquid calories at some point. It might have been psychological but lunch food (meaning post breakfast and pre-dinner) having 1500 calories of solid food and 1500 calories of liquids wasn’t the right mix. We were assuming we’d get a couple hundred calories from fat but I don’t think layering sugar on top of that was the right call for moderate intensity.

I would have gladly paid someone to tell me that as I was planning food. Day 7 my wife wasn’t thrilled with me either, which I also would have paid a lot of money to avoid.

So yeah, if it matters to you pay the money. It might overall align with conventional wisdom but you might pick a few things up.

No offense guys, but this is exactly why I want to talk with someone specifically about my personal situation and goals. Plus, I want to find out more about how to fuel/eat during training (base miles, intervals, lifting sessions, etc) and maybe how to change my diet in general.

[JimmyCarter]

Will throw in a plug here for my cousin Kolie .
https://www.empiricalcycling.com/
He’s more road/cross focused but a lot of it is general training.
You can pay for personal coaching but he also runs a pretty nerdy podcast that covers a lot of stuff and does an AMA a lot of weekends on instagram for free where you can get specific questions answered

https://www.instagram.com/stories/em...8174885194471/

[smmokan]

Day 7 my wife wasn’t thrilled with me either, which I also would have paid a lot of money to avoid.

Sounds like a new business opportunity...

[climberevan]

Regardless of what you meant to convey, you said when doing 150w you are using 100g of CHO per hour. Fat stores are effectively unlimited even for the leanest of us. When doing along at truly-easy efforts (e.g. 150w for someone fit) there is no need to try to cram in 100g/hr of sugar. Half of that is more than adequate and potentially unnecessary depending on the duration and efforts on previous/upcoming days.

Well, to be just a little pedantic (this is probably the thread for it, right?), I said "150w average uses around 400kCal per hour, which is 100g of carbs", not that one would only get those calories from carbs. But I will say again that most people are using mostly sugars to generate energy at any effort level above an easy walk. The whole "fat stores are unlimited" thing doesn't help when one is using energy at a 5x rate that it can be generated from fat. In any case, whatever small fat contributions are made come only from onboard stores, not from fat consumed during the effort.

Anyway, your other point is correct--aiming to replace about half of what one is using is probably fine. But our OP is wanting to do back-to-back longer days, so he needs to eat more to avoid an accumulating depletion.

Tailwind, I think your problem was simply not eating enough during your CT trip. Did I read correctly that you were eating 3000kCal/day? That's not nearly enough, and it caught up to you after 6 days.

I'm just curious: for those who are against just eating a shitload of sugar during exercise, what's your reason? If performance is the goal, the science is pretty clear at this point that fueling the work with sugar is the most effective strategy, but certainly people have other (possibly competing) priorities.

[Tailwind]

Tailwind, I think your problem was simply not eating enough during your CT trip. Did I read correctly that you were eating 3000kCal/day? That's not nearly enough, and it caught up to you after 6 days.
.

That was our rough “lunch food” for the day. It might have been a bit higher some days but that was the floor. Total calories were like 5000-5500 for me and high 4000’s for my wife. That still might have been a bit low but I’m honestly not sure.

The main issue became that more of our “3000 calories for lunch” were comprised of sugar than I think was sustainable and I think it led to higher levels of fatigue from some nutritional deficiencies.

For the record, I’m doing 100 grams of sugar in bottles for normal hard rides. For Bikepacking, that’s definitely a component but now it’s a much smaller percentage.

I do think sugar isn’t a fix all. For the sake of argument, sending someone on the Great Divide with 20lbs of sugar in a bag isn’t a good nutritional strategy. It might however work on a FKT attempt that’s going to take 15 hours.

Stage races are different because you’re going to eat something off the bike in mornings and evenings that’s not just sugar. Bikepacking… if you’re moving for 14 hours, day after day, you need to splice solid foods in there.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Anyone ever pay for any of the TrainingPeaks training plans?

Just turned 40. Can race with the old boys now finally and would have podiumed in that class last year except I was racing 18 year olds. Ive been skiing a bunch and doing lots of hot yoga, but can tell I am a dog on the indoor trainer right now. I need base miles and without any structure going down into my cold basement and riding is.....um tough.

[climberevan]

For $3.99/mo you can try the TrainerDay AI plans... TP always seemed really overpriced to me, especially since the advent of intervals.icu, which does the same analysis and more for a fraction of the price.

If you're going to do a polarized training plan, you'll have a ton of Z2 base hours. There's no way around it, and on a trainer it sucks. I personally think ski touring, easy running, and even fast hiking can have enough crossover to substitute for Z2 riding. We're not at the sharp end of the pro field, so losing a few % of optimization is fine.

[davjr96]

I'm trying athletica.ai, been on it for about 3 weeks so far. Really like it but don't have tangible results as it is still early.
I also like trainerroad's plans coupled with an indoor trainer. The static training peaks never really worked for me. What happens if you miss a day or a 2 hour z2 training day turns into a 6 hour ski tour because its the best skiing of the season? IMO the adaptability is important for amateurs like us. It's the pro's job to stick to a fairly rigid schedule or pay a coach to answer the above questions but its our job to have fun with some flexibility.