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Thread: Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

  1. #476
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    BA needs to be taken daily to really reap the benefits. It takes up to four weeks to fully saturate your carnosine stores. Powder form is best since it's inherently cheaper and the dosages required (3-6 g/day) equate to a lot of capsules.

    In the literature the performance benefits are limited to the 60-240 second effort range. But, I found that it made extended efforts at your limit, like a long steep shitfuck fire road climb, to be noticeably less miserable. It won't make you faster on those efforts than your fitness would otherwise allow, but it does seem to reduce the suffering involved and allow you to ride at that intensity for longer.

    I also spontaneously lost 2-3% body fat when I started taking it which didn't suck (this is consistently observed in the literature), and I swear it's helped my alpine skiing fitness. I ran out around the end of the year and didn't re-up for about two weeks. Toward the end of that period I was definitely starting to notice more thigh burn skiing and that reversed when I started back up.

    I asked Pickles (PhD physiologist) last summer if there were any plausible physiological mechanisms through which taking BA long-term could be unhealthy and he couldn't really come up with any. Maybe, possibly via it's competition with taurine uptake, but that is unlikely if your diet isn't already low in taurine and even then just stopping for a week every 1-2 months should prevent any possible issue. High-dose BA supplementation in rodents extends healthspan and median lifespan (but not maximum lifespan). There's no way to know if that translates to humans, but it is strongly indicative that BA supplementation is safe in mammals generally.

  2. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    BA needs to be taken daily to really reap the benefits. It takes up to four weeks to fully saturate your carnosine stores. Powder form is best since it's inherently cheaper and the dosages required (3-6 g/day) equate to a lot of capsules.

    In the literature the performance benefits are limited to the 60-240 second effort range. But, I found that it made extended efforts at your limit, like a long steep shitfuck fire road climb, to be noticeably less miserable. It won't make you faster on those efforts than your fitness would otherwise allow, but it does seem to reduce the suffering involved and allow you to ride at that intensity for longer.

    I also spontaneously lost 2-3% body fat when I started taking it which didn't suck (this is consistently observed in the literature), and I swear it's helped my alpine skiing fitness. I ran out around the end of the year and didn't re-up for about two weeks. Toward the end of that period I was definitely starting to notice more thigh burn skiing and that reversed when I started back up.

    I asked Pickles (PhD physiologist) last summer if there were any plausible physiological mechanisms through which taking BA long-term could be unhealthy and he couldn't really come up with any. Maybe, possibly via it's competition with taurine uptake, but that is unlikely if your diet isn't already low in taurine and even then just stopping for a week every 1-2 months should prevent any possible issue. High-dose BA supplementation in rodents extends healthspan and median lifespan (but not maximum lifespan). There's no way to know if that translates to humans, but it is strongly indicative that BA supplementation is safe in mammals generally.
    skiing hard for a spurt usually falls into that 60-240 second range of peak effort. Makes sense.
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  3. #478
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    For sure, it's right in line with the research. I've just never seen BA discussed as a performance enhancer for alpine skiing.

  4. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Question for the hard core numbers geeks: is it appropriate to apply some kind of correction to TSS for rides undertaken at lower altitude than normal? My threshold power is set to what testing indicates it is at my normal altitudes of 5-7000'. When I travel to the warmer lowlands to ride, I can crank out significantly higher power, so my TSS gets sort of ridiculous. Did I really get 475 points yesterday and feel fine today? That seems way off.

    I've heard mention of one being able to do more muscular damage at lower altitudes, so perhaps the TSS is correct. Anyway, thoughts are welcome.
    I try to remember to increase my threshold watts ~6% when I go down from Boulder to sea level. A couple days here or there won't make much of a difference, but a week of riding can make your TSB / CTL / ATL etc. all wonky.

    As a rough estimate, you can assume a 1% loss of threshold for everything 1,000ft up to 5k.
    From 5k and up, I account for 2% per 1,000.
    This is a ballpark number that easy to remember and calculate in your head- but it isn't 100% accurate.

  5. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    For sure, it's right in line with the research. I've just never seen BA discussed as a performance enhancer for alpine skiing.
    In theory, it holds.

    Beta-alanine supplementation leads to higher carnosine concentrations
    Increase carnosine increases intra-muscular buffering.
    Therefore, beta-alanine ought to benefit any activity that has muscle acidosis as a limiting factor, alpine skiing included.

    It also can improve performance in things like marathon mountain biking, which most people would write off as it's an event that longer than what is suggested (60-240).

    This is because most research is done at a steady-state "time to exhaustion". BA may not be correlated with increased performance in long, steady, events as they are not limited by acidosis (more likely CHO availability, Core Temp, etc.).

    However in real-world racing, even events that last 6 hours and have relatively low average workloads, there are segments of hard riding at or above threshold which means that local acidosis can be limiting and BA supplementation can be helpful.

  6. #481
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    Hey Everyone!

    It's been a while since I've been able to check-in but I've read a few pages back and there is an incredible amount of knowledge being shared.

    I'm going to toss an update in here as I think it may be interesting to some, but not worth making a thread over.

    In December, after 5 years of leading Advanced Development for P.I., I was approached with a very interesting offer.
    Since the beginning of the year I have been leading Product and Operations for Fast Talk Labs which is a start-up focused on creating and sharing high-quality endurance sports-science content. Currently the company distributes in two primary ways: through subscription to our website and the "Fast Talk" podcast. However, we'll soon have more of a presence on YouTube, and Social Media, as well as lowering subscription price and offering limited articles without a subscription.

    In addition to running the behind the scenes of the company, I'm also (as of episode 205) the co-host of the "Fast Talk" podcast which is focused on the science of cycling.

    When I'm fully up to speed in my new role, and things settle down a bit, I hope to be back in here contributing to this community.
    I do want to apologize, as it's been hanging heavy over me, that I have not created the indoor-cycling workout series that I originally set out to do. At this point, there's just not enough time in the day...

  7. #482
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    Congrats, Rob!

  8. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post

    In the literature the performance benefits are limited to the 60-240 second effort range. But, I found that it made extended efforts at your limit, like a long steep shitfuck fire road climb, to be noticeably less miserable. It won't make you faster on those efforts than your fitness would otherwise allow, but it does seem to reduce the suffering involved and allow you to ride at that intensity for longer.
    Really interesting how succinctly this describes my experience w/ BA, though I’m currently hiking really steep stuff rather than riding it.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  9. #484
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    Congrats XTR! We'll see ya on the flip side, when you get settled into the new gig.

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

  10. #485
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    Poor man's HotShot, available free at Snowbird's Creekside lodge:


  11. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    I do want to apologize, as it's been hanging heavy over me, that I have not created the indoor-cycling workout series that I originally set out to do. At this point, there's just not enough time in the day...
    I completely forgot you were going to do that until I saw your 30:30 workout on zwift yesterday. Congrats on the new gig, making a set of zwift workouts can wait.

    Why 10-8-6 for the 30:30s though? Don't have enough beta alanine for 10-10-10?
    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
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  12. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpathian View Post
    In the last 5 years I have been doing a fair bit of triathlon training and it is cool the way you can switch through the disciplines and work different muscle groups while accumulating 'stress' on the aerobic engine. It is crazy how good you feel to go for a run or bike after swimming because now you can breath freely. Or to go run after biking because you want to loosen legs up and maintain 'pop'. Or go bike after running to get away from the pounding...
    @carpathian I'd like to hear more about this. I'm reading back through the thread from the beginning and trying to pick up things that were lost on me last year. In 2021 I spent the majority of my time training on my gravel bike following XP's 3 week cycle (wk 1 = intensity, wk 2 = volume, wk 3 = rest/recovery).

    In years past I've spent more time in my flatwater kayak and would like to work that back in. Flatwater (marathon) kayaking is similar to cycling - low impact endurance. In the years that I've worked in sprints I have seen improvement over the years when I've just paddled pretty hard all of the time. It would seem to follow that I could do a similar 3 week cycle for paddling workouts. What I'm curious about is how they should be layered. Should I do paddling and cycling intensity weeks on the same week or offset them? If I do a Threshold cycling workout in the morning can/should I do a Threshold paddling workout in the afternoon?

    What do triathletes do?

    Seth

  13. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    What do triathletes do?

    Seth
    Shave your whole body, buy some short shorts and pee on your bike


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  14. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post

    What do triathletes do?

  15. #490
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    Those both made me laugh.

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  16. #491
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    You guys are on point with the tritard jokes.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  17. #492
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    But seriously... What's the answer?

    A big part of the last 100 pages or so is tackling the issue of working really hard when you work hard or going really easy most of the time. Some of the work is muscle group specific and some is focused on strengthening the heart. To maximize performance and improvement, should you after these days?

    Seth

  18. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    What do triathletes do?

    Seth
    Fuck up pacelines?

  19. #494
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    Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    What do triathletes do?

    Seth
    One approach to get time in each discipline for people who have jobs that aren’t triathlon is: 3 workouts ea discipline ea week
    Mon: S + R (not in sequence but on same day)
    Tue: B
    W: S + R
    TH: B
    F: S + R
    SA: long B or long R; or w/ brick (both in sequence) on alternating wks
    Su: off
    On a 3,4, or 5 wk repeat w/ a week of dialed back rest.
    Test all three together depending on race schedule maybe once every other cycle to match with the volume build

    Carpathian may be free styling a bit as I’m guessing he has a lot of base/volume in him already, but he should comment on his approach

    Always work on base before speed.
    Bike workouts tend to be longer & don’t stack well with running, so that’s why S + R days & B days.

  20. #495
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    I just took my first BA supplement (3g in 12 oz water) and my body is buzzing.

    Is this what it is like every time? Bringing me back to my rave days…..
    "Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. The winds will blow their freshness into you, and the storms, their energy. Your cares and tensions will drop away like the leaves of Autumn." --John Muir

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  21. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutter View Post
    I just took my first BA supplement (3g in 12 oz water) and my body is buzzing.

    Is this what it is like every time? Bringing me back to my rave days…..
    Yes, though I only really get it on a mostly-empty stomach.

  22. #497
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    I think everyone reacts a bit differently, but it def gets better/doesn't buzz as bad once you've been taking it for a while. I also went from chugging the BA water to sipping it over like 15-20 minutes. Slowing the ingest def stomps down the buzzing feeling for me.

  23. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    I completely forgot you were going to do that until I saw your 30:30 workout on zwift yesterday. Congrats on the new gig, making a set of zwift workouts can wait.

    Why 10-8-6 for the 30:30s though? Don't have enough beta alanine for 10-10-10?
    That workout is actually supposed to have 5 min of Threshold after each 30/30 block, which is pretty tough, hence the descending rep number.

    However, I'm riding so little right now that modifying this workout is the easiest variation I have.
    I think I'd need a Tony Montoya level of BA to make it through anything else.

  24. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    @carpathian I'd like to hear more about this. I'm reading back through the thread from the beginning and trying to pick up things that were lost on me last year. In 2021 I spent the majority of my time training on my gravel bike following XP's 3 week cycle (wk 1 = intensity, wk 2 = volume, wk 3 = rest/recovery).

    In years past I've spent more time in my flatwater kayak and would like to work that back in. Flatwater (marathon) kayaking is similar to cycling - low impact endurance. In the years that I've worked in sprints I have seen improvement over the years when I've just paddled pretty hard all of the time. It would seem to follow that I could do a similar 3 week cycle for paddling workouts. What I'm curious about is how they should be layered. Should I do paddling and cycling intensity weeks on the same week or offset them? If I do a Threshold cycling workout in the morning can/should I do a Threshold paddling workout in the afternoon?

    What do triathletes do?

    Seth
    Your body can only handle a certain amount of intensity, regardless of the modality because many of the stresses are not local to the specific muscle but systemic.

    So, A smart triathlete will still limit their intensity despite trying to train multiple disciplines.

    A Smarter triathlete will target improvements by focusing on particular disciplines at specific times.

    Most triathletes will do too much of everything and end up worse off.

  25. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    What I'm curious about is how they should be layered. Should I do paddling and cycling intensity weeks on the same week or offset them? If I do a Threshold cycling workout in the morning can/should I do a Threshold paddling workout in the afternoon?



    Seth
    I'd look at this the same way as strength training:
    1. You need to prioritize which is the most important for your performance (or for your fun)
    2. But most of your effort into the above
    3. Double up on hard days, make sure you keep rest days.

    The most similar is how strength is integrated into endurance training.
    1. In the off-season, strength can take more of a priority, but getting toward the endurance season it is just maintenance.
    2. Strength and Intervals fall on the same day to allow the body other days to recovery (which is when we rebuild).
    3. In the Strength + Interval Day, the order is dependent on which is primary and which order has the least detrimental effects. Typically this is strength after intervals for the cyclists / runners / etc among us.
    e.g.

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