Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[Dantheman]

None of fat, protein and carbs are evil. A balanced still works well there.

None of the macros are bad, only where they come from. Low-carb diets usually work well for people because they replace sugary drinks and processed snack foods with salads and shit. Whole foods are healthy.

Just for lulz I entered everything in my "typical" daily list into an online nutrition calculator.

~2800 kCal

I'm blown away you can get by on 2,800 kcal/day.

[fool]

Thanks, DTM for the Huberman recs. Need to start listening to those!

I could possibly benefit from classic "train low and race high" in reference to carbs? I don't really know.

I think overall I could be eating cleaner and I need to cut out stupid "treats" like Noosa Yogurt for desert (those things are basically ice cream).

If stuff is written out I am can be pretty damn strict. It's when I wing it that I get myself into trouble.

If you like simple rules and are interested in the lower-carb structure, you might like this. I’m not advocating low-carb as the way to go, but if that’s what you’re interested in, you might like his structure. I don’t do it - and I’m sure the collective has an opinion on it - but it seems like a decent baseline. Then you could supplement with a few select carbs (see below):

https://mtntactical.com/knowledge/nu...al-guidelines/

That being said, I do think the mention of Zach Bitter is apt. I don’t think it’s on his website/blog anymore - I searched - but previously his blog explained how he leverages more carbs in his low carb diet. The gist of it was that he didn’t hesitate to add sweet potatoes during 1) big training blocks and 2) ahead of interval workouts (where carbs/gluocse are especially critical for high HR activities, from what I understand). So, I think that’s a reasonable thing to consider if you do end up going low-ish carb.

I think I vacillate too much between super active or barely moving. I'm either trying to shred, or sitting at my desk for 5 hours straight. I think I should invest in a better setup so that I can be on the computer while sitting on the trainer bike. So when working or just surfing TGR I can at least be pedaling a bit.

I don't have a suggestion for a trainer-desk setup but I did buy an adjustable standing desk - the Fully brand - at the beginning of COVID and it was totally worth the $600. Love being able to adjust it throughout the day.

Also, FWIW, when I’m working from home I set my alarm to go off every ~60mins and I’ll do some push ups, walk the stairs, and/or other movements. DTM had some good thoughts too in the Leg Extensions training thread (in Tech Talk, iirc).

Like I said I think WG is at the point where a shift to more carbs would be helpful for getting the last few pounds off. I'd recommend a gradual transition that way but, again, LC is great for unfatting yourself and for easy weight control, not getting really lean or maximizing performance.

Interesting stuff, Bean. Any thoughts or studies on why the higher carb diet could help with getting a few pounds off? I agree on endurance performance maximization, but I haven’t considered more carbs helping to get the last few pounds off. I also there are studies that show that frequently low glucose levels are correlated to increased running injuries - and I assume cycling would be similar, though to a lesser extent - so that is another good reason for carbs.

I'm blown away you can get by on 2,800 kcal/day.

...especially at 15-20 hours of riding a week (based on Strava). I would be so hangry no one would want to be around me.

[climberevan]

None of the macros are bad, only where they come from. Low-carb diets usually work well for people because they replace sugary drinks and processed snack foods with salads and shit. Whole foods are healthy.

I'm blown away you can get by on 2,800 kcal/day.

Agreed on the first paragraph.

That's just the regular meals part and i left some stuff out that has zero protein bc I was just curious about the protein part after bean's skepticism. Remember that I'm "fueling the work" separately. That could mean another 1-3000 kCal depending on the workout.

Also your pecs alone probably demand 500 kC. I don't have that problem.

[bean]

Just for lulz I entered everything in my "typical" daily list into an online nutrition calculator.

~2800 kCal

105g protein (1.64g/kg, right in the middle of the range I'm going for).

People often assume a vegetarian diet won't have enough protein, but it adds up faster than might be obvious from whole grains, nuts, greens, and legumes, and a significant amount of cheese and yogurt in my case.

Nonetheless, I'm going to add a serving of whey isolate every day for a few weeks to push the number to just over 2g/kg. Maybe it will be better, and the cost is minimal.

1.6g/kg for a vegetarian is legitimately great especially since much of it is from dairy, even though plant-sourced protein is less bioavailable than animal-sourced protein. Adding the whey will be great.

[bean]

Interesting stuff, Bean. Any thoughts or studies on why the higher carb diet could help with getting a few pounds off? I agree on endurance performance maximization, but I haven’t considered more carbs helping to get the last few pounds off. I also there are studies that show that frequently low glucose levels are correlated to increased running injuries - and I assume cycling would be similar, though to a lesser extent - so that is another good reason for carbs.

It's not the addition of carbs so much as the removal of fat from the diet. The vast majority of fat on our bodies is stored dietary fat, for de novo lipogenesis (i.e. making new fat out of carbs) to happen you have to fill your carb stores and then keep eating more carbs. For most people this is >400g/day of carbs assuming zero physical activity. The low-fat bodybuilder diets work because you aren't eating enough fat to store. I get the feeling that low-glycogen/injury association is confounded by training volume but would be interested in seeing more. Even when doing low-carb I'm all about adding carbs near training.

...especially at 15-20 hours of riding a week (based on Strava). I would be so hangry no one would want to be around me.

Because he's 140lb in which case 2800kcal is a lot of food.

[VTskibum]

I'd be arrested for murder for more than a few days w/o coffee w/in 30 minutes of waking up. On a whim mostly w/ no real research started intermittent fasting 16 hours most days (7pm-11am). Read a few things about it, but black coffee and water until 11ish hasn't been as bad as I thought. Generally do lunch exercise routine so eat a banana/carb ~30 min before, though have done a few kid/easy ski days fasted and hasn't been too bad. Goal is mostly just keeping winter weight in check, may start some fasted endurance breakfast rides come spring for some fat fueling. Not training for anything these days, so mostly just keeping active and letting rest days occur when they naturally play out. So probably active 5 days a week on zwift/outside MTB/xc ski/alpine ski, sometimes 30-45 ride + weeknight ski as well.

For the more educated any good materials to dive in on intermittent fasting for endurance sports? Also if this is total BS would be curious as well.

[bean]

For the more educated any good materials to dive in on intermittent fasting for endurance sports? Also if this is total BS would be curious as well.

This is one of those things that's hard to measure. Most studies come up with little to no measurable impact from IF, fasted endurance training, etc., my take is it's due to carbs being so typically important to performance that the effect sizes are crushed when looking at power output. One thing they have consistently measured is increased fat oxidation during exercise in people who do fasted training. IMO the benefit is in being able to go without food on long efforts, and having a mentally easier time with it, rather than improved watts or other raw performance measures. And of course doing lots of fasted base training means that you're getting more base training in, which can be hard for a lot of people (like myself) to motivate to do despite it being important to performance.

[climberevan]

Because he's 140lb in which case 2800kcal is a lot of food.

Yeah, most active people will need more than us wee folk. An interesting data point: 2 weeks ago I did a biggish ride with 10k' climbing with a buddy who weighs 86kg/190#. So 22kg more than I weigh. His bike is similar, and he's also using a power meter so the calorie count is pretty accurate.

He burned 5335kCal and I burned 3453 kCal on the ride, so nearly 2000 kCal more required for the same 6h ride. We were both stuffing our faces, but there's always a deficit. It's a big part of the reason that even world class athletes can't really go very hard over super long efforts: eventually the gut just can't digest enough to keep up.



But back to WG's question: how does he get rid of his lingering belly? It doesn't sound like just adding 5h of training is in the cards, so my vote is that he should do the following.

1: try to eat a little more carby, mostly veg (primarily for the lower dietary fat that goes with this change, as bean noted)

2: try to get up and do some calisthenics at least every 45 mins during his bouts of desk work

3: (IMO the most important) eliminate worthless calories in the form of Noosa, bourbon, beer, or whatever, especially late in the day. I think this step alone would do it over the course of a couple of months.

[Dantheman]

I'd be arrested for murder for more than a few days w/o coffee w/in 30 minutes of waking up. On a whim mostly w/ no real research started intermittent fasting 16 hours most days (7pm-11am). Read a few things about it, but black coffee and water until 11ish hasn't been as bad as I thought. Generally do lunch exercise routine so eat a banana/carb ~30 min before, though have done a few kid/easy ski days fasted and hasn't been too bad. Goal is mostly just keeping winter weight in check, may start some fasted endurance breakfast rides come spring for some fat fueling. Not training for anything these days, so mostly just keeping active and letting rest days occur when they naturally play out. So probably active 5 days a week on zwift/outside MTB/xc ski/alpine ski, sometimes 30-45 ride + weeknight ski as well.

For the more educated any good materials to dive in on intermittent fasting for endurance sports? Also if this is total BS would be curious as well.

Huberman has a whole episode on IF/time-restricted eating that is, of course, excellent. Also check out the work of Satchin Panda.

The benefits to general health are unequivocal at this point. For endurance performance it's less clear. Pickles has posted in this thread that fasted training doesn't seem to have clear benefits and if anything workout quality suffers, on average. If there are performance benefits they're at ultra distances.

[EWG]

Huberman has a whole episode on IF/time-restricted eating that is, of course, excellent. Also check out the work of Satchin Panda.

The benefits to general health are unequivocal at this point. For endurance performance it's less clear. Pickles has posted in this thread that fasted training doesn't seem to have clear benefits and if anything workout quality suffers, on average. If there are performance benefits they're at ultra distances.

Fair, and I pretty much agree on the fasted workout usefulness (or not), but I've always assumed it would help with the transition away from carb burning at easier effort levels (see uphill athlete theories) cause you wouldn't have any carbs to actually burn.

[VTskibum]

Thanks will have to check those sources out. Generally w/o any more racing in my future, suppose general health really is the primary goal, side benefit of not becoming a fatass w/ nothing to train for.

I got to a decently high level in regional elite/open XC racing, had I taken my diet as seriously as actual training I mighta gone all the way, ok maybe not but got out of it what I put in.... aka 80% effort.

[fool]

Thanks, bean - that makes sense.

Agreed on the first paragraph.

That's just the regular meals part and i left some stuff out that has zero protein bc I was just curious about the protein part after bean's skepticism. Remember that I'm "fueling the work" separately. That could mean another 1-3000 kCal depending on the workout.

Also your pecs alone probably demand 500 kC. I don't have that problem.

I lol’d. And makes more sense on your calories.


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[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Yeah gotta quit the sweet yogurts 100%

Two mornings ago I woke up and did 45 mins of fasted Z2 on the trainer and then had my coffee + climberevan's oatmeal recipe afterwards. The first 10-20 minutes on the bike were tough. I was groggy and hungry, but then it felt pretty damn good.

[joetron]

Does lying in bed staring at my phone count for morning time before coffee, or do I actually need to be walking around trying not to stub my toe or put my pants on backwards before coffee?


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[babybear]

I think I vacillate too much between super active or barely moving. I'm either trying to shred, or sitting at my desk for 5 hours straight.

Bro. Hummingbirds

[muted reborn]

This thread is kind of crazy.

[east or bust]

But back to WG's question: how does he get rid of his lingering belly? It doesn't sound like just adding 5h of training is in the cards, so my vote is that he should do the following.

Acknowledging that I’m way out of my league here… But don’t overcomplicate something simple. If WG is sticking to this type of workout:

RDLs, Bulgarian split squats, Chest presses, bear crawls, tricep pull downs, jumping lunges, box jumps, dips, pull ups, back squats, cable sidesteps, split stance front squats, ski erg machine sprints, rower sprints, bosu board planks, balance ball DB curls to press, bent over single arm DB rows, etc

You don’t see anything lacking? Could add about 7 more ab isolating exercises in there for a routine of 15-20 minutes. Do it a couple times a week and and there will be no belly fat to speak of come bike season.

[bean]

You don’t see anything lacking? Could add about 7 more ab isolating exercises in there for a routine of 15-20 minutes. Do it a couple times a week and and there will be no belly fat to speak of come bike season.

Spot-reduction of fat doesn't happen, a bunch of direct ab work can slightly embiggen abs but definition is all done through overall bodyfat loss and getting lean.

[Dantheman]

Spot-reduction of fat doesn't happen, a bunch of direct ab work can slightly embiggen abs but definition is all done through overall bodyfat loss and getting lean.

This. Also, FWIW, except for some occasional ab wheel rollouts I basically don't do any ab-specific work.

[climberevan]

I figured bean and DTM would cover it, and they did. Everyone has abs--they are just hiding under a "blanket" in some cases.

I'm no Enduro racer, but WG's list seems like a lot. Is it so much that it takes away from actual riding time? Is that typical for downhill-focused training? Anyway, I'm mostly focused on going UPhill fast and going for a really long time.

[Dantheman]

Whiteroom, are you taking beta alanine? Modest fat loss is one of it's consistent effects, and it's awesome all-around.

I'm no Enduro racer, but WG's list seems like a lot. Is it so much that it takes away from actual riding time? Is that typical for downhill-focused training? Anyway, I'm mostly focused on going UPhill fast and going for a really long time.

I got the impression he wasn't necessarily doing all of that every workout.

[climberevan]

Question for the hard core numbers geeks: is it appropriate to apply some kind of correction to TSS for rides undertaken at lower altitude than normal? My threshold power is set to what testing indicates it is at my normal altitudes of 5-7000'. When I travel to the warmer lowlands to ride, I can crank out significantly higher power, so my TSS gets sort of ridiculous. Did I really get 475 points yesterday and feel fine today? That seems way off.

I've heard mention of one being able to do more muscular damage at lower altitudes, so perhaps the TSS is correct. Anyway, thoughts are welcome.

[bagtagley]

Beta Alanine + wool shirt = 10-15 minute super tingle. I can’t say I like it, but I am getting used to it.

[Sutter]

Are you guys taking Beta Alanine as a pre-workout supplement? Powder or capsules?

[climberevan]

Are you guys taking Beta Alanine as a pre-workout supplement? Powder or capsules?

I've tried it as pre-work out thing because I ended up with some free powder. I def got the tingles and maybe some benefits for short efforts but I didn't think it helped for the kind of long stuff I'm into. For something like a criterium or XCO or Enduro race, maybe it would be good.