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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Question(s):
    1. Realizing that the best defense is a good offense, if you start going downhill, how do you recover?
    Caffeine has saved me from bonking several times. It's a more powerful ergogenic than most people give it credit for. I always have a some caffeine pills in my kit for long rides. 50-100 mg is usually plenty for me.

    In situations where you run out of food and/or water prematurely your first move should be to reduce intensity.

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Caffeine has saved me from bonking several times. It's a more powerful ergogenic than most people give it credit for. I always have a some caffeine pills in my kit for long rides. 50-100 mg is usually plenty for me.

    In situations where you run out of food and/or water prematurely your first move should be to reduce intensity.
    I read it literally, "How do I recover on downhills". Glad you answered first!

    1. I agree that reducing intensity is the necessary move. Ideally, you slow down before you need to. This allows you to continue at a slightly reduced pace as opposed to full on implosion.

    2. I'll also add that you need to be proactive and not let hubris get in the way. Be honest with yourself about how you're feeling, where you are, and where you're going.

    3. Often people will ignore important signs. Despite feeling good at the moment, that quick hamstring cramp when you got off for the HAB is likely to come back... with a vengeance.

    4. If you're consuming more than you plan now, you will not be able to make it up by rationing later.
    I carry a water filter on longer rides (typically a Katahdyn BeFree); this allows the freedom to get back on track (assuming you have water sources).

    5. Ketone Esters have saved me, but they're typically a last-ditch "get to the finish" solution as they upset my stomach and I struggle to eat after. It's like drinking flavored kerosene.

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    I read it literally, "How do I recover on downhills". Glad you answered first!
    Ha! Yeah, I suppose that I could have posed that question a bit better. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    2. I'll also add that you need to be proactive and not let hubris get in the way. Be honest with yourself about how you're feeling, where you are, and where you're going.
    When I go out on a 1-2 hour ride I think the thought process of "yeah, I'm thirsty, but I can make the next 45 minutes without water" is probably true. When I'm already 5.5 hours in, I can't afford to make that same call. I chalk (chock?) this up to having less experience with these longer efforts. In hindsight I rode my bike by a lemonade stand in the middle of nowhere that I almost stopped at. . . That probably would have kept me going.

    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    4. If you're consuming more than you plan now, you will not be able to make it up by rationing later.
    I carry a water filter on longer rides (typically a Katahdyn BeFree); this allows the freedom to get back on track (assuming you have water sources).
    I had one of those filters on the mtb ride but I left it when I started the road/gravel section. That also would have changed the game and something I hadn't planned on bringing with me (but probably will).

    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    5. Ketone Esters have saved me, but they're typically a last-ditch "get to the finish" solution as they upset my stomach and I struggle to eat after. It's like drinking flavored kerosene.
    That doesn't sound very pleasant.

  4. #279
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    Another "anecdotal from the field" comment:

    I raced enduro last weekend. Overheard from one pro woman, "This is harder than the last 4 or 5 EWS races."...Lots of DNFs. Several it seemed quit cause they just didn't want to do the grueling HAB again.

    I mean it was hard and hot, but I think what helped me hugely was trying to eat as much real food as possible. Giant breakfast 3 hours before start time.....aka camp was still dead quiet and I was up making breakfast instead of sleeping in. I tried apples and bananas during race days and felt amazing. I had a few Kate's bars and Honey Stinger Waffles too. I had like one pack of blocks and one hammer gel all weekend.

    I tried to eat the rice bars I made and maybe my recipe sucked cause they were very wet/gooey and very hard to eat. Like oatmeal in a foil wrapper.

    Either way I am off the block/gel game unless I have no choice. If I have to pack everything in maybe I will try some dried fruit/sliced apples smashed into my pack. I think having an actual sandwich on course would have been great too. I never felt that gross synthetic block/gel feeling I usually get 5 hours into a day of HAB.

  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Caffeine has saved me from bonking several times. It's a more powerful ergogenic than most people give it credit for. I always have a some caffeine pills in my kit for long rides. 50-100 mg is usually plenty for me.
    On long rides, esp when hot out, I almost always stop at a Wawa or 7-11 and grab an airplane sized Coke (or a larger one and drink less); I almost always find that its the perfect amount of refreshment and NEVER fails to pick-me-up!
    It makes perfect sense...until you think about it.

    I suspect there's logic behind the madness, but I'm too dumb to see it.

  6. #281
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    I'm glad to hear that the gospel of stuffing your face has been heard and is helping people!

    WRG you prob either had too much water or didn't cook the rice enough. You'll get it right with practice. Mine hold together well enough to remove them from the foil, but I like them partly because they are way more moist than packaged bars.

    I also love caffeine. I carry No-Doze and use it occasionally around hour 4 if I'm going all day, but I'll definitely choose a coffee stop on road rides. I also sometimes carry a Red Bull (which actually has way less caffeine but still seems to work) and throw it back for the second half of all day efforts.

    For the "oh shit I missed a feed and am now behind" cure I just try to catch up as quickly as possible, preferably with drink mix it I have enough of it. It usually results in an hour or two of reduced intensity but often I'll get back to business after that. It's been a long time since I really got far behind.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  7. #282
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    I have a question for XTR and everyone.

    Lately it's very smoky and I've been working more than I like to. So, I haven't been able to ride as much as I'd prefer. Training weeks have dropped from 20+ hours to 8-12. Mostly I want to maintain my long-ride fitness so that when I finish the projects I'm working on in a month or two I'll be able to do some awesome huge rides in the Autumn months.

    What should I focus on as a kind of "minimal effective dose" for training to get through this period? I'm motivated enough to ride for like 3 hours on the trainer, but it looks like 6+hour rides are not in the cards as long as it stays smoky here. (My personal limit for riding outside is AQI of about 100, and lately it's been closer to 200 a lot.) I have been doing some VO2 max intervals in the last few weeks, and they are going well, but it's the long rides that I'm missing. I built a huge base in the early spring with multiple 24 hour training weeks, and I really don't want to lose that.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool View Post
    Loving this thread!

    For the people working on fueling, I have to put a plug for Spring Energy. They are gu/gel-like, real-food based, and I haven't had any stomach issues with them (though my stomach is pretty tolerable, I think). I use them for trail running but cyclists might enjoy them too. Boulder-based. https://myspringenergy.com/
    I had one of these during a race last weekend. Really liked it. No stomach issues and the taste was better than just about any gu I've had. Only downside I've found is their product selection is a bit confusing, but not a big deal to wade through all the specs on their website.

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    I have a question for XTR and everyone.

    Lately it's very smoky and I've been working more than I like to. So, I haven't been able to ride as much as I'd prefer. Training weeks have dropped from 20+ hours to 8-12. Mostly I want to maintain my long-ride fitness so that when I finish the projects I'm working on in a month or two I'll be able to do some awesome huge rides in the Autumn months.

    What should I focus on as a kind of "minimal effective dose" for training to get through this period? I'm motivated enough to ride for like 3 hours on the trainer, but it looks like 6+hour rides are not in the cards as long as it stays smoky here. (My personal limit for riding outside is AQI of about 100, and lately it's been closer to 200 a lot.) I have been doing some VO2 max intervals in the last few weeks, and they are going well, but it's the long rides that I'm missing. I built a huge base in the early spring with multiple 24 hour training weeks, and I really don't want to lose that.
    Getting on a plane, this will be quick.

    1. Iíd add in a touch more intensity as a % of total time.

    2. Iíd also try to complete a few doubles through the week. Preferably in one of two ways. Morning fasted, which would mean riding the evening prior and not consuming carbs after. Then riding in the morning. Alternatively, ride in the morning, low carb during the day, then ride again in the evening.

    3. Donít sweat it. Itís really difficult to maintain 20 hours per week throughout the year. Take this time to let your body relax and plan to ramp up when youíre able.

  10. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    I had one of these during a race last weekend. Really liked it. No stomach issues and the taste was better than just about any gu I've had. Only downside I've found is their product selection is a bit confusing, but not a big deal to wade through all the specs on their website.
    I like the looks of these. In reality for most races that aren't centered around the same base like a ski are carrying actual food is gonna be tough. These look pretty close to being "real".

  11. #286
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    One additional thought on the "Oh shit I'm out of water" topic:

    If this happens, close your mouth and switch to nose breathing. This will force you to reduce intensity, and also will reduce your rate of water loss. If I'm remembering the stats from James Nestor's Breath correctly (great book, highly recommend it), nasal breathing reduces the amount of water lost through respiration by around 40%.

  12. #287
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    Coke legs is a thing. Donít drink soda often these days but will hit wawa for one to finish the last stretch of a long, hot, hilly ride.

    Also used to do the caffeine gum during pre-race warmups. Canít say for sure how much it changed anything but definitely had some placebo effect.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #288
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    I think the effects of caffeine on performance are fairly well studied, right?

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    I think the effects of caffeine on performance are fairly well studied, right?
    Very.

  15. #290
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    Dec 2006
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    Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    I had one of these during a race last weekend. Really liked it. No stomach issues and the taste was better than just about any gu I've had. Only downside I've found is their product selection is a bit confusing, but not a big deal to wade through all the specs on their website.
    Glad to hear it. Yeah, their product line strategy could be more clear. I started with the assorted pack to try them all and have since narrowed down on the peanut butter (orange), apple cinnamon (light green), and plum (purple-y) ones. I enjoyed the yellow caffeine one but I've cut down my caffeine lately. I still don't know how the apple cinnamon gu is 180 calories. It goes down so easy.


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  16. #291
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    Iím going with the stuff yo face method for this beast of a ride on Saturday. Greylock Vertical Challenge, 105 miles with 12,000í of climbing!
    Weather looks perfect, five fully stocked sags, gonna roll with some SIS drink packs and some of their gels as well. Probably be well over a hundred folks on the big ride. The crux of which comes about mid-ride, up and over Greylock, 9 miles at 6% with double digit sections. Iím expecting to be on the bike for at least 7 hours. Obviously I want to be towed by the front group as much as possible, but I donít really want to go past Z3, not sure how thatís gonna play out. Planning on stopping at every sag, and Iíll probably stop for a Dr. Pepper at mile 75ish. This will be my longest day on the bike, time wise, ever. Hoping for a good group to suffer with.
    Tips for this kind of day?
    Registration is still open

    https://www.bikereg.com/50022

    https://ridewithgps.com/routes/36325927
    crab in my shoe mouth

  17. #292
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    I think keeping yourself in control is a good strategy, however, you'll need to make the decision at times whether it's worth it to dig deeper to stay with the group. Try to know what you want to do ahead of time.

    You'll experience high and low points, don't worry too much during the low's just focus on what you need to do. Eat. Drink. Pedal. Don't get too over zealous on the highs either, stick to the plan even if you're feeling good.

    Remember, Always Keep Moving Forward. Every little bit of time savings or "free speed" adds up over time.

  18. #293
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    When I look at that profile, I see going hard and drafting the fastest group you can for the first 25-35 miles to get some time banked away. Then settling into a comfortable pace to the top of that long climb.

    I'd you know where the sag stations are, make sure you think ahead of stopping. People lose so much time at those by not thinking of what they want and need. Pay attention to others at the sag and don't let a draftable group get away from you with a quicker stop.

    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

  19. #294
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    Good intel, thanks. Losing time at the sags will definitely add up and make a long day, even longer. Iím fully expecting to go through a rough patch at some point, just going to work through it. Free speed will be crucial tomorrow, good tip.
    crab in my shoe mouth

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    I just cut them into even blocks based on the cake pan I have. I think they're about 2"x 3", usually. I kind of assume they are around 200kC, but i haven't added it up so that could be WAY off. We use the pre-cut foil sheets that come in a big box at restaurant stores, and that's the size that works well to fold up.

    Maybe your contribution could be to add up the calories and weights of all of the ingredients and divide by the total yield so we can all learn how many calories they have!
    WRG didn't get around to it so I added it up. My latest sweet rice bars batch yielded 15 bars at 175 kCal each. I used a half block of cream cheese cheese in this one, along with about 1/4 cup of maple syrup. I had hoped they had more calories, but with that much moisture I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

    Thanks for the recs, XTR. 2 a day sounds like a great way to simulate longer rides, especially with the fasting element. The smoke actually lifted somewhat, but we'll see how long it lasts.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    I had hoped they had more calories, but with that much moisture I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
    Low calorie density is why whole foods are great for general health but not so great for endurance fueling. I was all about potatoes as ride fuel for a long time (still am for general eating, I'm lucky if a 15 lb Costco bag lasts 2 weeks) since they're basically all glucose and have lots K, Mg and VitC. But, they just don't have enough calories. An entire pound of potato, roughly 1.5 large Russets, only has 350 kcal.

  22. #297
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    Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

    Whoop-Whoop! Got her done! Felt good all day. Drank and ate and drank and ate. Saved a ton of time at the sags, rolled most of it with one other guy. Perfect weather

    https://strava.app.link/yd19pAKxlib
    crab in my shoe mouth

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttahflake View Post
    Whoop-Whoop! Got her done! Felt good all day. Drank and ate and drank and ate. Saved a ton of time at the sags, rolled most of it with one other guy. Perfect weather

    https://strava.app.link/yd19pAKxlib
    Solid ride. Nice work. Isn't it great to still feel good 7 hours in?
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  24. #299
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    Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

    Dude! I was the one still taking the big pulls into the wind at mile 98. Pickles at all 6 aid stations. SIS powder in the bottles was easy and really good at keeping my carb intake at the perfect levels. I took three of the powder packets with me and used it all, 80 grams a packet, I was splitting them. Fig Newtons, Chocolate Chip cookies, SIS gels. It was a great event, the climb up Greylock is incredible, 100 mile views all over it, and the descent down the south side was really fun.
    crab in my shoe mouth

  25. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post

    3. Donít sweat it. Itís really difficult to maintain 20 hours per week throughout the year. Take this time to let your body relax and plan to ramp up when youíre able.
    Well, i guess the form hasn't suffered... I found some clear air to the south.

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    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

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