Time to turn up DIN?

[JuiceboxHero]

This is my fourth season skiing and back in the day I had set up my DIN based on the standard charts. For me that worked out to something like a DIN of 7, I'm 6'1" 185lbs.

Lately I've been skiing a bit more aggressive and popping out of my skis. I can't tell if it's my lack of skill or if my DIN should be turned up (maybe both). This Saturday we got about 4"- 6" and I was going through bumps faster than normal. I plowed straight over some of them on purpose, absorbing some with my legs and jumping off others. Twice, when I landed in the trough of the following bump I got a double-eject and face planted. Like the skis just decided "nope, not doing this" and popped off. I didn't feel anything in particular, the skis were just gone and I was plowing through the snow face first. On a third instance I dropped off a small boulder and landed in the back-seat (my bad). It felt like I could have totally ridden it out but again lost a ski, this time the toe binding released.

Is this a problem of technique, am I just not skiing smooth enough? Should I turn the DIN up? If so, how much?

[eSock]

Do you know what skiing level you originally had them setup based on? Sounds like you're at a lvl 3 or 3+ and should probably re-calculate accordingly.

[Benneke10]

Yes you probably are set up as a Lvl II skier and you're now at Lvl III which will probably put you somewhere between 8-10 DIN

[XXX-er]

usually I can tell if i screwed up on my skiing and deserved to come out of the binding

its pretty easy to just go up 1 DIN and see if works better for you

[morphintoskittle]

If you're skis are popping off when you think they shouldn't be, then you probably can turn up your dins. I would first check that the bindings forward pressures are correct and that the bindings aren't old and worn out, but if those two things check out then I'd turn the dins up a bit. No more than a half din at a time though.

When I was originally starting to ski harder I ejected a variety of times due to my dins. Every time my ski would pop off where I felt it was unwarranted (ie. it wasn't a crash until my ski popped off), then I would turn them up a half din. I'm now at a 10.5ish din at 6'2 170ish lbs. With that said, there are a variety of factors that go into DINS such as your boot sole length as well, so it really is important to base your din off of your level of skiing and only increasing it in small amounts.

[HHTELE]

Same boots as always right?
Adjusting forward pressure and DIN is easy.
Confirming the binding is really functioning right takes a calibrated machine.
FWIW- I am your size, ski 8-8.5, and seem to come out when I should, stay in when I should. Mostly.

[adrenalated]

I'm just here to remind everyone that comparing DIN settings based on height/weight without also stating your boot sole length is pointless.

[noslow]

As others have mentioned DIN, Forward Pressure and AFD/Toe height will all effect pre-releases. Might be something as simple as redoing your AFD/toe height because of wear effected things.

Here’s a DIN calculator to determine that at least. What bindings are you on so you can check forward pressure and AFD/Toe height.

http://www.mechanicsofsport.com/skiing/equipment/bindings/din-calculator.html

[JuiceboxHero]

Yes you probably are set up as a Lvl II skier and you're now at Lvl III which will probably put you somewhere between 8-10 DIN

That sounds about right from what I remember.

Just to add a little more context:

• BSL: 316mm
• Bindings: Warden 13 MNC, demo version
• Skis: QST 106, 188cm

EDIT: I'll check the forward pressure later this evening.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Double check toe height. Recalculate DIN for type 3.
Depending on how you bounce off or absorb stuff, or don't, you may need another .5.
Those are good bindings, so try not to fuck with them too much. Make sure to pop the boot in and out a few times after any adjustments. DIN adjustments may be done best with boot in, IIRC.

[El Kanone]

Dude stop complicating the easy things, there is a simple formula, just plug in your stats and boom you have your din.

F=G m1m2 {df/dt =lim h>o} Z=Z2+C

[noslow]

Looks like you’re around 8.5 on the DIN if you’re under 50 years old at Type 3 or 10 DIN at Type 3+ so a slight adjustment if so. Here’s how to test forward pressure and Toe Height. Remember to test toe height with pressure on the boot cuff to “wheelie” the toe to remove slack and THEN test to see if you can slide a business card around under the toe. Adjust the toe down until there is resistance to moving the business card under the toe even when you are still trying to wheelie the toe.

[Bandit Man]

Turn ‘em up...

You may be skiing more like a 3+ which means you deviate from the recommended (and typically conservative) settings.

Chart puts me at an 8. I ski at a 10. When I used to drop stuff it was a 12 or higher.

I still come out at a 10 but the occurrences are fairly rare.


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[Core Shot]

Turn ‘em up...

You may be skiing more like a 3+ which means you deviate from the recommended (and typically conservative) settings.

Chart puts me at an 8. I ski at a 10. When I used to drop stuff it was a 12 or higher.

I still come out at a 10 but the occurrences are fairly rare.


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^^^^^^^ this

Once you’re hucking, you’re three PLUS

Or more.

As said before, if forward pressure (and toe height, or not worn soles) are all good, anytime you boot out and thought you shouldn’t, add a din or at least a half.

[timeo]

The DIN formula says I should be a 7 based on 3+ level. I ski w/ them at an 8 and lose a ski maybe once, twice max per season so that works for me. The worst thing is a pre-release when you are hauling...

[RShea]

You do not state the brand of bindings in original post (edit see it mentioned later). Some are worst for release than others (Markers in years past for one before they went to Griffon, Baron and Jester models).

As some others have stated- there are more variables than just weight and height of a skier. Skier Types I, II and III with 3 being advanced, racer, charging through moguls, and park skier types. Boot sole length enters into the formula also. Taller skiers can just due to the leverage and exerting just a bit of force can many times just lean out towards the tips a bit and release out of a heel and need to sometimes go up on the heel setting if forward pressure and boot sole is not worn and out of specifications set. I run my heels a half setting higher than the toes as I am close to your height and weight...

[gregL]

There is no rule saying you have to abide by the DIN chart once you leave the shop; the recommendations are conservative even at the Type III skier end of the spectrum. Common sense would dictate that you should increase your DIN setting before you suffer a spinal injury (potentially much harder to fix than a lower extremity). Try turning them up gradually (like .5 DIN at a time) until you are satisfied with the retention.

The chart puts me at an 8 as a Type III, Type III+ puts me at 9.5, I currently ski at 11 (and I've backed off with age).

[gregorys]

The DIN formula says I should be a 7 based on 3+ level. I ski w/ them at an 8 and lose a ski maybe once, twice max per season so that works for me. The worst thing is a pre-release when you are hauling...

I'll be the contrarian here - or at least a voice of "know what you're doing."

Read the vermont ski safety article about ski release. It's possible you ski in such a way that causes a release at values that are far above what is safe. If that's the case, changing your skiing would be the safer way (and perhaps the only reasonable way) to resolve the issue. See this page, and expand the last item; https://vermontskisafety.com/researc...-skiersriders/ (If my bindings are releasing inadvertently...)

IMO, while there are worse things that a broken leg - IMO, I'd rather release when hauling. (I speak from experience.) If you're in truly no-fall zones and you're worried about release and the results - then perhaps that's a counter-point. But broken legs are very expensive, and pretty much suck.

As a result, when I returned from a pretty serious tib+fib (comminuted, but closed fracture) and started skiing again (I broke it on the first full day of the season and skied the last 1/3 of the season) I knew I was _really_ pushing what was wise. I set my DIN _really_ low. Like Type I, minus 1 (IIRC, that was a DIN of 3.) I skied the whole rest of the season like that, and I was frankly shocked at how rarely I released.

Since then, I've continued to be quite conservative about release values. And I'm more conservative about toe values, than heel values. (perhaps this is bad science, but since my injury was a rotational one, it's one I'm most sensitive about.) Part of that reasoning is that I tend to release at the heel in deep snow more. This is almost certainly partially caused by poor technique, at times. But I'm pretty sure that's not all. (And I'm paying attention to the release conditions as noted in the article referenced above.)

The short answer, for me at least is; If I ski in good form, I release far less than otherwise. I'm wary of using higher DIN values to compensate.

But, as GregL notes - you are supposed to reduce DIN by 1, at 50 years old. I'm not following that rule. (It's hard because I'm close on the weight range where I'd fall up one DIN - certainly would with a pack on.) I could still probably live with the "50 rule" - but I'd release in more situations - usually when I'm on the verge of blowing up, and having a little extra retention helps me save it.

Just some caution about blindly turning up the DIN. My experience (which may only apply to me) indicates that higher DIN isn't a blanket cure to releases and may increase the danger of injury in a non-proportional way to how much it helps you.

YMMV

[gregorys]

TThis Saturday we got about 4"- 6" and I was going through bumps faster than normal. I plowed straight over some of them on purpose, absorbing some with my legs and jumping off others. Twice, when I landed in the trough of the following bump I got a double-eject and face planted.

BTW, this sounds EXACTLY like what the vermont safely people call the "Flex effect." I've had it happen nuking soft piles and suddenly (in my case) you feel the ski simply slip off and drift away. Strange feeling.

[rod9301]

I'm 176, bsl 315, 5 8 and i ski at 10.5-11.

The charts are very conservative.

One thing you should do though, measure your bone density. It takes only a few minutes and then you know.

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[californiagrown]

BTW, this sounds EXACTLY like what the vermont safely people call the "Flex effect." I've had it happen nuking soft piles and suddenly (in my case) you feel the ski simply slip off and drift away. Strange feeling.

How do they suggest fixing that problem?

[gregL]

But, as GregL notes - you are supposed to reduce DIN by 1, at 50 years old.

Another thing I conveniently ignored when I turned 50, I waited until I blew my knee up . . .

[gregorys]

How do they suggest fixing that problem?

I'd suggest reading the article.

But here's a relevant excerpt.

Poor Technique ‘Pulls’ The Heel Piece Open — The inadvertent release is precipitated by the skier driving the shin rapidly forward at the same time as the forebody of the ski flexes sharply upward. It is most likely to occur to a ski that is only partially weighted. The inadvertent coordination of these movements by a skier who is otherwise erect and in balance can put the lower leg momentarily in tension, thereby allowing the skier to pull the heel piece open with no apparent effort. This classical example of poor technique (bad software) can only be avoided through education–smoother, better coordinated technique. Cranking up the heel piece is not necessarily the solution. Once learned by our testers, this scenario could be repeated, even at release settings on the heel piece well beyond the setting range of any binding now available to the public.

This may not be what the OP is experiencing - and none of these issues may be at play. But, IMO, being aware of the issues they discuss make me a lot more discerning about what to look for and what may make sense to do in response to releases. (Turn up the DIN, or pay more attention to my skiing, and/or the details around a release etc.)

But in the example above, the ONLY fix is to adjust how you ski. You could crank the DIN up to 18+ and it wouldn't stop that particular issue - at least according to VSS. (And IME, having released in ways that are similar, with essentially no effort, I think they're right.)

[JuiceboxHero]

Tonight I checked my forward pressure and toe height, both look good! However it looks I was wrong about my current DIN settings, they weren't set to 7. One ski was 7.5 and the other was 8...

Judging from the article gregorys linked to, it's probably a combination of poor skiing on my part and not just the DIN. Especially this part:

Poor Technique ‘Pulls’ The Heel Piece Open — The inadvertent release is precipitated by the skier driving the shin rapidly forward at the same time as the forebody of the ski flexes sharply upward. It is most likely to occur to a ski that is only partially weighted. The inadvertent coordination of these movements by a skier who is otherwise erect and in balance can put the lower leg momentarily in tension, thereby allowing the skier to pull the heel piece open with no apparent effort. This classical example of poor technique (bad software) can only be avoided through education–smoother, better coordinated technique. Cranking up the heel piece is not necessarily the solution. Once learned by our testers, this scenario could be repeated, even at release settings on the heel piece well beyond the setting range of any binding now available to the public.

That sounds like exactly what happened both times I ejected from my skis, I landed on or at the start of a bump and the skis popped right off. So I decided to play it safe and bump them up to 8.5 for now. After all, I'm not popping out when simply hauling through manky snow or even in many crashes.