So when do we talk about opening up some new ski areas?

[nickinbc]

The number of skiers isn't increasing? Do you have any data on that? Why does it seem like crowds get worse every year, even pre ikon?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-in-the-us/

and more importantly for the resort industry:-

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-2000/

So increased numbers at some resorts must be mainly the result of reduced numbers at others.

[NWFlow]

^i think they're all in The Backcountry.

Guess the trick, in all seriousness, is to figure out areas that aren't seeing the crowds and take the hit in terms of terrain/snow quality for a bit more space and peace.

[old goat]

Yeah, it's hard to imagine a brand new resort on FS lands. The only way would be if a local community was down on their luck (dying mining or timber town?) and 100% behind it, but even then, I doubt it. Not to mention the expense- those 10th mountain guys that opened so many resorts after WW2 weren't THAT rich. Now it feels like you have to be a billionaire for a full fledged resort, as opposed to something like Silverton.

The 10th Mountain guys weren't looking to get rich either. They and their investors mainly just wanted to ski. Walt Disney was already rich but he invested in Sugar Bowl because he loved to ski. Today the investors expect a healthy return on investment.
The private land at Sugar Bowl was initially bought for the modern equivalent of $150,000 and the lodge and Disney lift were built for the equivalent of $1.3M.
Before the lift was built in 1938 there was a viable earn-your-turns ski school there. In case anyone thinks BC skiing is a new thing.

Times change--what did a Babe Ruth rookie card cost when he was a rookie.

In Europe aren't a lot of lifts owned and operated by the towns?

[RootSkier]

Yup, that one failed for numerous reasons. USFS had previously approved a lift up Lolo Peak, but that project went bust. Then when the new guy stepped up years later, the USFS was wavering on wether they would re-approve. But before USFS announced their decision, what really killed his project was the long flat runout to his private land that depended on snowmaking using water rights that he wanted to take away from area ranchers via eminent domain.

Key takeaway = in Montana, whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting.


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It wasn't eminent domain but there was about to be a raging dispute about the use of water rights. The Maclay family had LOTS of water rights but wasn't clear they could be used for snowmaking.

Then they illegally logged on FS land during the permitting process and the FS denied their permit in large part because it bordered Wilderness and threatened endangered alpine larch, which has a tiny range.

The cut runs are a visual eyesore and when you are up high, like at the Bowl, it is preposterous to see how far those runs are from the alpine.

[old goat]

The solution for skiing is working from home with flexible hours. The resorts everyone complains about are within driving distance of big cities and are mainly overwhelmed on the weekends. Or on powder mornings before the locals have to work.

[Leshphilling77]

Yup, that one failed for numerous reasons. USFS had previously approved a lift up Lolo Peak, but that project went bust. Then when the new guy stepped up years later, the USFS was wavering on wether they would re-approve. But before USFS announced their decision, what really killed his project was the long flat runout to his private land that depended on snowmaking using water rights that he wanted to take away from area ranchers via eminent domain.

Key takeaway = in Montana, whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting.


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It really just did not seem to make a whole lot of sense. In like 2007 or 2008 my roommate at the time and myself went out there for for free cat skiing on his land and lunch where they gave a presentation to try to get you to sign a petition they had going. I was maybe a little on the fence at the time but neither of us signed it. I was just in it to go skiing in a cat for free.

[half-fast]

The places around here, which are small, relatively are having good seasons due to the fact that there’s not anything else to do. I’ve noticed a lot of never-evers and a lot of people who haven’t skied in years. I wonder if this season will be a kick start to the smaller areas?
Or if whenever the pandemic is over it goes back to the way it was?

[yeahman]

Guess the trick, in all seriousness, is to figure out areas that aren't seeing the crowds and take the hit in terms of terrain/snow quality for a bit more space and peace.

This is true, but that's a tough tradeoff because we all love that good terrain, and honestly skiing eventually gets a little boring without it. So really the trick might be to find a balance: ski the best areas when the crowds are least, and ski the lesser areas when the crowds are clogging the best areas.

[evasive_MT]

This is the most likely scenario I could see as well. Lots of terrain that requires little to no Avi mitigation, basic meadow skipping to around 30 Deg. and access to much more advanced terrain for those willing to work for it. That seems like the kind of operation the USFS would be more apt to look at favorably.


Be great if a ski manufacturer could develop a decent skiing, short/fat fish scale ski & boot and binding combination.

That’s more or less what I was finally able to do this season (and then waited for snow). But I had to know that this gear was available from smaller companies and piece it together. And you won’t find any of it at Bob Ward.

Oh, and another plug for the History of Modern Skiing. Great book.

[FortySixMac]

I would also recommend reading "The Story of Modern Skiing" by John Fry to get a sense of historical perspective regarding ski area/resort development and challenges. Great book.

Edit to add: Not likely but I could maybe see the revitalization of a ski club scene with small lodges open to members that would access skin-to backcountry terrain with no lifts and minimal services... grab and go lunch service and possibly ski patrol/snow safety staff.

Phenomenal book. If history repeats itself, Vail Resorts is just another company that will get too big and operationally costly and go bust. Will probably take longer given the size of their pocket books and investors, but I think we will see them slowly start off-loading smaller mountains in the future.


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[stuckathuntermtn]

Phenomenal book. If history repeats itself, Vail Resorts is just another company that will get too big and operationally costly and go bust. Will probably take longer given the size of their pocket books and investors, but I think we will see them slowly start off-loading smaller mountains in the future.


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I wouldn't count on it. The smaller mountains are a funnel to the bigger ones.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

This is the most likely scenario I could see as well. Lots of terrain that requires little to no Avi mitigation, basic meadow skipping to around 30 Deg. and access to much more advanced terrain for those willing to work for it. That seems like the kind of operation the USFS would be more apt to look at favorably.


Be great if a ski manufacturer could develop a decent skiing, short/fat fish scale ski & boot and binding combination.

Altai Kom with pins and two buckle plastic. Best meadow skipping rig around.


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[raisingarizona13]

The solution for skiing is working from home with flexible hours. The resorts everyone complains about are within driving distance of big cities and are mainly overwhelmed on the weekends. Or on powder mornings before the locals have to work.

If everyone figures out this solution though, like this year with Covid and everyone working from home creating more open schedules it's no longer a solution.

My solution for this year is to say heck with it and go walk around the desert.

[Hopeless Sinner]

I wouldn't count on it. The smaller mountains are a funnel to the bigger ones.

The smaller mtns need to attract more skiers by adding new lifts and terrain to absorb people heading towards the big name brands. It's certainly going to be easier to incrementally make an existing operation more attractive and keep skiing somewhat financially accessible.

[iriponsnow]

I would absolutely love to see some new places open up if for no other reason then so many resorts I get to travel to appear to be haphazardly laid out and half assed in terms of format.

Years back I worked for a mountain that ended up changing hands because they were hired on as the construction crew for cutting the trails and then the original owners defaulted. Nice family but I believe they were bridge construction folk- ultimately VR purchased them.

Doesn’t seem like flow or topography is really considered in much of what has been built in the last 50 years.

What if areas just hired the mountain bike crew to reconstruct some of the ski runs? At least these guys have some conception of flow and run out.

[thefrush]

Phenomenal book. If history repeats itself, Vail Resorts is just another company that will get too big and operationally costly and go bust. Will probably take longer given the size of their pocket books and investors, but I think we will see them slowly start off-loading smaller mountains in the future.


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Just a reminder that Vail/Alterra are primarily real estate companies that use the ski area niche to drive demand in their regions. The ski area just has to break even or can operate at a loss as long as people are coming and staying in lodging and spending money at businesses that lease from the companies.

[tetzen]

Overall trends are that less entry level skiers are taking up skiing due to the costs etc. Current and future economic trends do not favor there being more skiers entering the sport.

Attachment 362695

https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Programs/G...9-1ec4cc4c9844

https://www.stylealtitude.com/the-fu...wboarding.html

What are the worldwide trends like currently, though? How about in Asia? Are skier #s increasing in those places? The second link says there are 12.5 million skiers in China now. I suppose the sport has somewhat plateaued at the resorts for now, but that is probably because so many have gone out into the backcountry or just aren't being captured in these stats.

[ill-advised strategy]

Sprained my eyes by power-eyerolling at the prospect that the answer to crazy overcrowding of quality inbounds terrain and the future of alpine skiing in this country is sandwich shops at the base of quasi-XC meadow skipping.

That’s the polar opposite of what we lack, of what’s being totally overcrowded because of scarcity: no-frills lift access to steep terrain.

If you think doing laps on the snowbird tram is the same thing as hiking...good, go hike....but the answer to the overcrowding of good inbounds skiing isn’t going to be convincing people who like good skiing to substitute hiking and flats for lifts and steeps. One sucks, the other doesn’t, it’s pretty simple.

[Bunion 2020]

Well there will be no more Snowbird style trams being built on public lands in this country.

[singlecross]

Sprained my eyes by power-eyerolling at the prospect that the answer to crazy overcrowding of quality inbounds terrain and the future of alpine skiing in this country is sandwich shops at the base of quasi-XC meadow skipping.

That’s the polar opposite of what we lack, of what’s being totally overcrowded because of scarcity: no-frills lift access to steep terrain.

If you think doing laps on the snowbird tram is the same thing as hiking...good, go hike....but the answer to the overcrowding of good inbounds skiing isn’t going to be convincing people who like good skiing to substitute hiking and flats for lifts and steeps. One sucks, the other doesn’t, it’s pretty simple.

Development looks to the future and you're preaching in the past.

Millennials in camper vans would gobble up some vegan-powered, hippie-pow co-op they could join and safely park, camp, skin, and instagram. They want an "authentic" mountain experience but want it easy and safe because they're soft. Is it niche? Yes. But viable, too.

The JHAF is dead, but their kids are micro-dosing, building backcountry kickers, and meadow-skipping. Like it or not, follow the inheritance money.

eta: I'd like to ride the Poma at Bridger too, but that ain't gonna happen either.

[NWFlow]

^ My main hope is that enough of my generation decides to go this route so that the steep, lift accessed chalk becomes uncrowded again.

[ridinshockgun]

If you are ok skiing something other than fresh snow, the lines aren't that bad. But now EVERYONE only skis with 6"+ of fresh snow. Everyone stays home with their fat rockered skis and only goes skiing when there is fresh snow. I know, it is amazing but now every single skier does this.

I have gone so many days 1-2 days after a storm and skied all day with no lines...on a weekend.

Instagram shots of bump skiing or steep chalk just don't cut it. Gotta get the pow shot for the gram.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Hey, it turns out all the mellow terrain they added at Snowbowl is actually pretty nice. What's a guy to do but it ski it? Yeah, it's low angle, but there's also no tracks on it. Count me in.

[raisingarizona13]

If you are ok skiing something other than fresh snow, the lines aren't that bad. But now EVERYONE only skis with 6"+ of fresh snow. Everyone stays home with their fat rockered skis and only goes skiing when there is fresh snow. I know, it is amazing but now every single skier does this.

I have gone so many days 1-2 days after a storm and skied all day with no lines...on a weekend.

Instagram shots of bump skiing or steep chalk just don't cut it. Gotta get the pow shot for the gram.

It's been so busy here I'm now looking forward to mid week packed powder days.

Make mogul skiing rad again........2021.

[ridinshockgun]

It's been so busy here I'm now looking forward to mid week packed powder days.

Make mogul skiing rad again........2021.

I bought some Nordica Enforcer 93s for this season for just that purpose and have not regretted it. Will maybe come out of this year a better (and happier) skier as a result.