why does "forgiving" == "in the backseat" for me?

[Conundrum]

I skied a buddy's 112s. I didn't like them. Especially when there are so many other skis in that range I do like. I don't think it's a bad ski, just not a ski for me. See my comment above about my rich buddies who dig them. I agree that too many people trash skis as bad because it's not a fit for them. If someone likes what they're skiing on, that ski is a great ski for that person.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I skied a buddy's 112s. I didn't like them. Especially when there are so many other skis in that range I do like. I don't think it's a bad ski, just not a ski for me. See my comment above about my rich buddies who dig them. I agree that too many people trash skis as bad because it's not a fit for them. If someone likes what they're skiing on, that ski is a great ski for that person.

I would agree.


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[XXX-er]

If you spend more time making money than skiing you probably want something easyier and the wailer is easy to ski and cost lots of money which you have cuz you work > ski

we bought the very first wailers in the narth back when they had shiny topsheets really epensive slivers and you paid 2 months in advance, a guy came up to me in the lift line and asked " are they as good as they say ? " of course i said oh yeah man ! but i didnt really think they were all that and a bag of chips

[plugboots]

Forgiving is a term shop rats use when they are selling a ski to a guy who probably has an ego problem. Most often used when the guy’s wife/girlfriend is standing there too. It’s a tough situation for the shop rat...sell the guy expert/charging skis and he hates them and thinks the rat sold him shit. Call the guy intermediate and sell them the proper ski and he thinks the shop sucks for doubting his prowess and ability. The ace is selling him a forgiving ski that is extremely versatile and he’ll buy skis from you again and send all his investment buddies to you too.

Makes sense.

[phatboy64]

I would agree.


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Exactly

[EWG]

If you tend to get a little in the backseat and stiffer ski can hide that. The tails give you a little more support and keep you forward. A softer ski will let you get more backseat as there isn't as much stiffness to keep you centered. Think of an office chair - one version with a backrest that bends easily, one with a back with more stiffness. A medium flex ski with soem backbone can hide a tendency to get backseat.

Some skis can take this to the extreme. I've skied some really wide really soft twin tips made for doing butters, taps and other tricks and you can tell immediately that when you land airs you better damn well be landing inside your boot soles, cause there is nothing else on that ski that is going to support you. By contracts, I've got a pair of skis with nice front rocker but almost no tail rocker (Sick Day 110) and the stiffer tails are really fun - I can pop off stuff all day, and if I get the landing a little wrong it's not worries. In fact, sometimes I'll land behind the boot zone on purpose because the stiffer tails provide some shock absorption if they hit first.

Right now I'm playing around with a true centermount on a 114/186 Line Mordecai and I'm finding the opposite - the shorter ski in front of me is causing some wierd issues are high speeds - but damn it's a fun ski. So fast side to side for a 114.

Sorry - off topic. My guess is that the stiffer Lotus is hiding your backseat tendencies in a way the Wailer does not.

[stuckathuntermtn]

IME the Woodsmans (woodsmen?) are very turny and forward mounted. A lot of stuff now is designed to be skied more upright and more centered.
If, like me, you've got 30+ years of muscle memory telling you to get forward, this doesn't always make for a happy skier. Also, a stiff tail on a ski can be used as a crutch to get you back in the front seat, but that won't work with a softer tail and it definitely won't work with a softer shovel and forward mount like the Woodsman.

All I got. Hope it helps.

PS, too soft (or too stiff) a boot can also lead to backseat driving.

[The Suit]

Haha -- "Wailers suck" seems to be the top scoring answer. The idea that a stiffer ski keeps me centered makes some sense, although it's a bit at odds with the tendency of a stiff tail to punish tailgunning.

I don't think bindings or mount point are the explanation. I'm pretty sure the lotuses and both wailers all have Griffons on them. The Woodsmans have P14s, and the demo skis are demo skis. They're all mounted on the manufacturer's line.

I like the theory that stiffer skis give more feedback. I'm also wondering if maybe it's dampness that I like, rather than just stiffness. I don't know if this is the right terminology, but I feel like the Wailers have a ton of rebound when I run their tips into something.

Anyway, I demoed the Brahmas again today. Kickass ski for sure.

[californiagrown]

A soft ski is like an old caddilac, while a stiff charger is like a work truck. The cadillac handles well at low speeds and makes for a nice plush ride as long as you arent taking corners fast, slamming on the brakes etc. But once you load it up with fat family members all late for midnight mass you nearly bottom out the suspension and roll the thing on the way to church while driving like a madman. A worktruck feels like shit unloaded and driven slowly... but load it up with 800lbs of gravel and you can mob on some fairly rough fire roads.

Basically, a more forgiving ski doesnt take much force or speed to ski/perform well, but if you put in too much force or speed it starts to get overwhelmed. On the flipside, a stiffer charger takes a lot of speed and force to ski well, and is a ton of work to ski if that lower limit is not met.

Peronally i like softer skis for untouched pow, slush and moguls... but there is something real addictive about going mach chicken through softish chop where the faster you go, the smoother the ride.

[XXX-er]

" Haha -- "Wailers suck" seems to be the top scoring answer. "

not really the real question might what is the ski that you want/like and is the wailer it ?

Personaly I wanted to make bigger turns than the wailer makes, i found wailer very much like the JJ's i already owned so when I got warranty I flogged the wailers still in shrink wrap

BUT I felt guilty so I bought the lotus

Wailer is " the L120 tip/tail, with double the splay, and the Cassiar 85 sidecut/camber under foot dropped in."

[east or bust]

... but there is something real addictive about going mach chicken through softish chop where the faster you go, the smoother the ride.

Reminds me of last season when DJ let me borrow his 194 DLP’s in slushy spring chop conditions

[The Suit]

the real question might what is the ski that you want/like and is the wailer it ?

That's not the question I was trying to answer. I can already figure out what skis I like by skiing them. I was hoping to maybe better understand why I like them.

[Mudfoot]

With forgiving (soft) skis it can be easy for a heavy or aggressive skier to over ski the front end so they wash out of the carve and get stuck in the back, especially in the bumps (see EWG #31 above).

[schindlerpiste]

Stiff tails will abuse you if you ski in the backseat, not forgive you. Another very forgiving ski that allowed you to get by as a backseat driver was the original S7. During the innovative days of PMGear, ON3P, and PRAXIS, the big guys were trying to follow suit with softer wide pow skis that allowed for shitty skiing.

[half-fast]

A stiff ski will also keep you upright if you get in the backseat

[XXX-er]

That's not the question I was trying to answer. I can already figure out what skis I like by skiing them. I was hoping to maybe better understand why I like them.

cuz you are a special flower so just get red ones

[Marshal Olson]

Regarding the Wailer skis, a few things-

1). Both, but the 112 (-13.5 or -14 IIRC) in particular, have very far back mounts.
2). Both, but the 112 in particular, have a lot of tail rocker over the short distance mentioned in #1.

Essentially there is no tail on these skis to be supportive, and as such, they are unforgiving to getting your weight behind the balls of your feet.

There is essentially no rocker on the 120’s tail, and the tail is quite stiff, so it is way more supportive.

a “foregiving” ski generally means the tail is relatively soft (see: last few year Nordica enforcer/el capo), so if you make a mistake, the ski flexes, rather than driving your feet forward.

[XXX-er]

i had attack 13 demo bindings so I back to back tested everything from -2 to +6

YMMV as they say but +6 wasnt so bad,

it felt unbalanced popping off small jumps

but I settled on +4

[ill-advised strategy]

hostel takeover

TOP BUNK!
stealin’ all ur ramen noodlez.

[XXX-er]

ramen is fo white people who can't cook rice

Hai yaa !

[ill-advised strategy]

Don’t try me uncle Ben, I will take over your hostel...

[Buster Highmen]

I've always assumed that a ski that is characterized as "more forgiving" should be easier for me to ski, but I'm starting to feel that the opposite is true.

I first started noticing it skiing powder. I had some DPS Wailer 112 pures that were my go-to for powder, and some Lotus 120s that I thought were "too much" for me. A couple of years ago Mrs. Suit told me that I skied better on the Lotuses (which I kinda knew) and so I started skiing them most of the time. Last year I was tired and took the Wailers out for a day, thinking they would be easier. Instead I was in the back seat and kind of miserable all day.

Last week I skied back-to-back days on ON3P Woodsman 108s the first day, and Wailer 99 pures the second. Same experience, especially in bumps. I loved the Woodsmangs and flailed on the Wailers.

Monday I demoed some Blizzard Brahmas and loved them. I figured I should try something else to compare so I asked the demo dudes to suggest something a bit more forgiving. They set me up with a pair of Dynastar M-Pro 90s. I liked them OK on groomed, less so in crud, and absolutely flailed again in bumps.

I can just get the Brahmas without needing to understand what's going on, but WTF? What does it mean if I can't ski for shit on "forgiving" skis?

For me, I'm not as confident on a soft ski, it feels like I'm going to go over the handlebars.

I felt that way about the RP112, not enough effective edge because of the huDge rocker and getting forward on those things felt like there was nothing there.

(edit) The thing I don't like about the RP112 is the shortness of the effective edge. I couldn't get that bounce out of them I can get out of the Loti. I really like how I can lean on the fronts of the Loti and feel the support for the carve, bend them, then get the buck into the next turn.

[Danno]

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe someone has looked at it from this angle already, but...

What color are the skis? Are any of them red?

[Core Shot]

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe someone has looked at it from this angle already, but...

What color are the skis? Are any of them red?

Lotus 120 can be had in red.
But the black bamboo are better.

And the Brahma are black. And my favorite ice and hard pack ski. Is that racist?

TRG is under attack by the red menace.
Black dps were made in USA. The red ones are from China. Coincidence? Or threat to national skicurity?