why does "forgiving" == "in the backseat" for me?

[The Suit]

I've always assumed that a ski that is characterized as "more forgiving" should be easier for me to ski, but I'm starting to feel that the opposite is true.

I first started noticing it skiing powder. I had some DPS Wailer 112 pures that were my go-to for powder, and some Lotus 120s that I thought were "too much" for me. A couple of years ago Mrs. Suit told me that I skied better on the Lotuses (which I kinda knew) and so I started skiing them most of the time. Last year I was tired and took the Wailers out for a day, thinking they would be easier. Instead I was in the back seat and kind of miserable all day.

Last week I skied back-to-back days on ON3P Woodsman 108s the first day, and Wailer 99 pures the second. Same experience, especially in bumps. I loved the Woodsmangs and flailed on the Wailers.

Monday I demoed some Blizzard Brahmas and loved them. I figured I should try something else to compare so I asked the demo dudes to suggest something a bit more forgiving. They set me up with a pair of Dynastar M-Pro 90s. I liked them OK on groomed, less so in crud, and absolutely flailed again in bumps.

I can just get the Brahmas without needing to understand what's going on, but WTF? What does it mean if I can't ski for shit on "forgiving" skis?

[whyturn]

The DPS skis are too turny and sink.


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[2FUNKY]

It means that in your head you think forgiving means you can be lazy with your form and transfer weight to your heals. You still need to be technically solid but “forgiving “ skis mean they require less input and leg strength to get them to respond to input.
In short, stop shitting your turns on “forgiving “ skis.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

The wailer 99 and 112 and shitty skis. Brahmas and Lotus 120s are excellent skis. That's all.

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[davjr96]

In my experience, forgiving = soft = leaning back out of unconscious fear of overflex (is that a word?)

[XXX-er]

listen to your wife and ski the lotus, them wailers are for fucking dentists

[optics]

Is there a pattern to mount point?

More forward/“progressive” = can’t get on the tips = unconscious reflexive overcompensation that gets you in the backseat?

[XXX-er]

The lotus have 60 cm of early rise, in pow you can lean forward like a fool and the tips will not sink , not the case with wailers

[phatboy64]

I know I am going to get crap for asking but......What is the deal with the hatred for DPS skis? I get it that they are expensive compared to other skis. Like most of you guys I have owned a shitload of skis over the years, a few pairs of DPSs...I found them fun in tighter New England type lines. IDK maybe I am just a Dentist,,,

[Tap]

Donkey Punch Special

[whyturn]

I know I am going to get crap for asking but......What is the deal with the hatred for DPS skis? I get it that they are expensive compared to other skis. Like most of you guys I have owned a shitload of skis over the years, a few pairs of DPSs...I found them fun in tighter New England type lines. IDK maybe I am just a Dentist,,,

I have OG lotus 120 love it

Skied wailer, spoon 120, spoon 138

Wailer was too soft and turny and had no float

120 and 138 were 2x4 and felt dead.
Maybe these are good for cat or heli

So bring back the OG120!


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

Op, what bindings were you using on the various skis?


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[strange meadow lark]

IME less forgiving = more form/balance feedback. Or at least feedback that you are used to and have the muscle memory to adjust balance if you spend most of your time on stiffer skis. Start going backseat on something with a real tail and you will know right away. While something more forgiving might let you spend more time easing into the backseat without letting you know until you get even further back or your balance is challenged (i.e. by chop or mogul). But this may not be the full story, as I have enjoyed the few times I switched to a more forgiving ski midday after the form was already warmed up, which does not jive with your demo experience.

[ZomblibulaX]

I have somewhat the same issue when going to shorter, turnier skis, but it’s entirely my technique. I get so accustomed to having to constantly push and dominate a larger ski that I forget to readjust my input on a smaller/softer ski. Stand up straight, get neutral, roll the edges over instead of stomping on the gas pedal all the time.

I’ve felt for a long time that big gun skis, for me, end up being a bit of a crutch, because I can just rely on brute force in many situations rather than legitimate technique. But I’m not a small man so it’s fun to blow shit up.

I also do a lot more extension between turns on a shorter ski, compared to staying compact, releasing the ski at the end of the turn and letting that energy snap over to the new edge. Wish I could say it’s an easy transition but I’m no ski instructor.

Donkey Punch Special

Dumb People Skis
Dental Professional Skis

Having only skied a very few DPS skis, I can say that the Wailer 112 RP is garbage. Honestly, the Rossi Soul 7 is a legitimately better ski in nearly any condition other than untracked pow, and I could happily throw those out the window on the interstate.

[Conundrum]

Some skis are made to not punish marginal/bad technique. Some skis are made to reward great technique. Skis don’t typically do both. DPS made both kinds and it has diluted the brand’s reputation with chargers.

It’s funny, most big brands have skis across the spectrum. TGR approved boutique brands don’t have the desire (mostly resources) to build across the spectrum. When a boutique brand finally goes there, the hardcore roast them and label them with monikers like dentist or doctor preferred skis. Mostly because only dentists were going to pay the elite pricing for what is truly an intermediate ski.

I have rich buddies who ski poorly on wailers but sing them praises. What do I care...they’re happy and they didn’t buy those skis with my money.

[El Chupacabra]

Op, what bindings were you using on the various skis?


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This can make a difference - especially ramp angle.

[ZomblibulaX]

I have rich buddies who ski poorly on wailers but sing them praises. What do I care...they’re happy and they didn’t buy those skis with my money.

To each their own indeed. I personally have a hard time reasoning with paying a premium for an indie brand when I can find an analog with similar performance from a major manufacturer for significantly less.

Everybody makes shitty skis. Compared to big brands, indies typically make fewer shitty skis.

[El Chupacabra]

Some skis are made to not punish marginal/bad technique. Some skis are made to reward great technique. Skis don’t typically do both. DPS made both kinds and it has diluted the brand’s reputation with chargers.

This, and it made for the RP 112 being pretty disappointing after expecting something floaty like the 120 and 138, hoping for a touch of original Wailer 105 so it would be a more versatile ski that could handle hardpack. Instead, I found it ridiculously hooky on groomed and not nearly as smeary fun in pow. The RPC 115 is the ski that I was expecting, and it delivers.

I remounted my RP 112s with pin bindings, and they're fine for pow touring - light, turny, and I ski a lot slower touring than inbounds.

[XXX-er]

I know I am going to get crap for asking but......What is the deal with the hatred for DPS skis? I get it that they are expensive compared to other skis. Like most of you guys I have owned a shitload of skis over the years, a few pairs of DPSs...I found them fun in tighter New England type lines. IDK maybe I am just a Dentist,,,

The last of the guys who started DPS were bought out in a hostel takeover by a god head, they changed the skis not necessarily for the better

The wailer I liked well enough but the turn shapes were too small

but the lotus 120 from 10 yars ago I loved, i still got 2 pair in both sizes

if they made another Lotus 120 they could probably sell them all, the production manager told me he still has the forms

[Conundrum]

Sorry, I meant new wailers and RPs. The original Wailers were decent.

[plugboots]

I think this is just a semantics issue. “Forgiving” is just really code for “an intermediate skier would like this”, and so you fold the ski, it flops around at speed, etc.

[Conundrum]

I think this is just a semantics issue. “Forgiving” is just really code for “an intermediate skier would like this”, and so you fold the ski, it flops around at speed, etc.

Forgiving is a term shop rats use when they are selling a ski to a guy who probably has an ego problem. Most often used when the guy’s wife/girlfriend is standing there too. It’s a tough situation for the shop rat...sell the guy expert/charging skis and he hates them and thinks the rat sold him shit. Call the guy intermediate and sell them the proper ski and he thinks the shop sucks for doubting his prowess and ability. The ace is selling him a forgiving ski that is extremely versatile and he’ll buy skis from you again and send all his investment buddies to you too.

[smooth operator]

Honestly, it is hard to come up with the right answer without seeing you ski. It could be a million things, some of which have been mentioned already.
And I too have noticed that stiff skis do not necessarily bring out the best technique, as noted above:

I’ve felt for a long time that big gun skis, for me, end up being a bit of a crutch, because I can just rely on brute force in many situations rather than legitimate technique. But I’m not a small man so it’s fun to blow shit up.
.

[phatboy64]

The last of the guys who started DPS were bought out in a hostel takeover by a god head, they changed the skis not necessarily for the better

The wailer I liked well enough but the turn shapes were too small

but the lotus 120 from 10 yars ago I loved, i still got 2 pair in both sizes

if they made another Lotus 120 they could probably sell them all, the production manager told me he still has the forms

True and I get it. The wailer 112 is definitely not a charging ski and I have had float issues with them as well, Don’t get me wrong, I am not defending them one way or the other. It just seems like there are some folks on other forums trashing them and I wonder how many have actually skied them and formed their own opinion....

[MagnificentUnicorn]

This can make a difference - especially ramp angle.

Yeah, I’ve hated skis with older Dynafits and changed over to a binding with significantly less ramp and loved them. Some people are more sensitive to ramp and it pushes them into the backseat, usually someone on dps 112s but often other skis.


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