Atomic Backland Tour question

[Robik]

What's the main advantage of going brakeless over brakes besides weight savings? They are going on a pair of 190 Ravens and will use Dynafit Hoji Pro Tour boots. I've noticed that with the brakes the heel rests on the pad vs. being suspended on the pins with brakes removed.

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[Sargentdrufus]

I threw on a freeride spacer from ATK to solve the pin float issue.

As for the advantage of going brakeless? Weight savings is part of it.

Not losing a ski in deep snow if you happen have a release. (The whole I don't want to get whacked by my skis thing has never been a problem).

I've been on leashes and no brakes for a couple of years and I don't miss them at all.

I don't know that there are really many outright advantages, but there is no disadvantages

[caulfield]

One less hole in the ski, lower fiddle factor, skis-on transitions at the top, less ramp if you mount without the brakeless plate. I like brakeless for all those reasons but both answers are right.

[jacob_dbu]

One less hole in the ski, lower fiddle factor, skis-on transitions at the top, less ramp if you mount without the brakeless plate. I like brakeless for all those reasons but both answers are right.

Can't you do a ski on transition from tour -> ski in both cases? In neither mode can you do a ski on transition from ski -> tour (really only useful when you're on a flat run out back to the car).

An advantage (or disadvantage) for the brake is you never have to turn the heel piece in tour mode, but you lose the truly flat riser option.

[skifishbum]

im not sure how anyone who has spent much time around avvys would want to have skis attached to them in one
but i hope you dont need to find out it will not be an advantageous in any way shape or form that i can forsee or have experianced

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I've done Euro touring that involved trams, gondolas, and crossing roads. Fiddling with leashes on every transition sucks. Rarely an issue in North America. I go brakes when I'm in Italy and (mostly) brakeless in the US. I use leashes that have a fuse that should break in an avy (B&D).

[RockinB]

I’ve been rubbing all my rigs brakeless for 7 or 8 years. Last winter I picked up a pair of these binding with breaks and figured I would try them out. I took them off after my first tour. Way more fiddle factor than leashes in my opinion. I had the brakes deploy while in hike mode multiple times over the day...could have been an icing issue or user error, but it was annoying as hell. Just my $.02

[caulfield]

Can't you do a ski on transition from tour -> ski in both cases?

Oh yea that is true. Might just be a yoga pose that is above my level.

im not sure how anyone who has spent much time around avvys would want to have skis attached to them in one
but i hope you dont need to find out it will not be an advantageous in any way shape or form that i can forsee or have experianced

And I'm not sure how anyone who has spent much time post-holing would want their skis not attached to them when the truck is miles away. I use a fused leash and the fuse breaks when I think it should, so I'm not worried about the avy anchor. Brakes vs. leashes is an infinity argument and like I said, both answers are right.

[LeeLau]

I’ve been rubbing all my rigs brakeless for 7 or 8 years. Last winter I picked up a pair of these binding with breaks and figured I would try them out. I took them off after my first tour. Way more fiddle factor than leashes in my opinion. I had the brakes deploy while in hike mode multiple times over the day...could have been an icing issue or user error, but it was annoying as hell. Just my $.02

I've been running the Salomon version with brakes for 3 years and 1 year without brakes. Curious how the brakes would deploy in skin/hike mode. There's a physical lever one deploys to keep the brakes stowed on skin mode and the lever is in such a position it'd be hard to accidentally engage

[cydwhit]

I agree with Lee. I've toured a fair bit on these (with brakes) and have three partners that only ski them (also with brakes). I've never seen the brakes come down accidentally, and have a hard time imagining how that would happen.

I sort of hate this argument because it's all based on experiential evidence. Trying to make sweeping universal statements on super personal gear choices is often foolish. (for example, some people cross more roads than you...super interesting insight)

For my part: I only ski without brakes on skis/days where I'd also be skiing with the toes locked. I have ejected with leashes a few times and I have gotten smacked hard and cut by my edges. It sucks. I get that some people have their leashes set up to break away in an avy, but that seems like you're either risking that not happening, or your leash breaking on a normal eject and losing your ski. Neither is an awesome alternative.

Not being able to transition with brakes without getting out of the ski sounds like a personal problem, it's not really any more fiddle than flipping the heel tower into ski mode.

For me: Brakes are great for stopping my ski when I'm skiing with the assumption that there's a chance I'll eject. Leashes are great for days when I'm not worried about avys, and I'm really not planning on losing a ski, for any reason. I ski a lot more of the prior sort of days than the latter, so I run brakes on all my touring skis right now.

[3PinGrin]

I agree with Lee. I've toured a fair bit on these (with brakes) and have three partners that only ski them (also with brakes). I've never seen the brakes come down accidentally, and have a hard time imagining how that would happen.

I sort of hate this argument because it's all based on experiential evidence. Trying to make sweeping universal statements on super personal gear choices is often foolish. (for example, some people cross more roads than you...super interesting insight)

For my part: I only ski without brakes on skis/days where I'd also be skiing with the toes locked. I have ejected with leashes a few times and I have gotten smacked hard and cut by my edges. It sucks. I get that some people have their leashes set up to break away in an avy, but that seems like you're either risking that not happening, or your leash breaking on a normal eject and losing your ski. Neither is an awesome alternative.

Not being able to transition with brakes without getting out of the ski sounds like a personal problem, it's not really any more fiddle than flipping the heel tower into ski mode.

For me: Brakes are great for stopping my ski when I'm skiing with the assumption that there's a chance I'll eject. Leashes are great for days when I'm not worried about avys, and I'm really not planning on losing a ski, for any reason. I ski a lot more of the prior sort of days than the latter, so I run brakes on all my touring skis right now.

Personally, I would worry about losing a ski more with brakes than with a leash (all situation dependent obviously, eg. firm snow vs powder (can bury with brakes though), terrain, etc.) I'm a fan of the B&D fused link leashes, but different strokes for different folks.

[caulfield]

Dude asked a straightforward question and now he's gonna end up getting lectured on 27.5 vs 29 wheels. Pick a ski stopping method and be a dick about it!

Not being able to transition with brakes without getting out of the ski sounds like a personal problem, it's not really any more fiddle than flipping the heel tower into ski mode.

Yea I was wrong about that item and have acknowledged it. I probably should have just said ramp and left it at that.

[Robik]

Dude asked a straightforward question and now he's gonna end up getting lectured on 27.5 vs 29 wheels. Pick a ski stopping method and be a dick about it!



Yea I was wrong about that item and have acknowledged it. I probably should have just said ramp and left it at that.

I was more curious about pin float thing. Would the difference be so noticeable on the way down? No resort days on this setup, only backcountry.
Thanks

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[caulfield]

I was more curious about pin float thing. Would the difference be so noticeable on the way down? No resort days on this setup, only backcountry.
Thanks

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Haha that might even be more of a preference thing than the brakes themselves. Some people hate it, some blame the lack of active length compensation for tech binding harshness. I never skied mine with brakes, so my opinion is worthless, but I'd wager you would notice the difference. Whether it impacts your fun index for the day is gonna be personal. The stuff you ski and how hard you ski it matters as well.

[galibier_numero_un]

I've done Euro touring that involved trams, gondolas, and crossing roads. Fiddling with leashes on every transition sucks. Rarely an issue in North America. I go brakes when I'm in Italy and (mostly) brakeless in the US. I use leashes that have a fuse that should break in an avy (B&D).

Fiddle factor with leashes (on again, off again) indeed.

Affixing the leashes to my boot and clipping into the ski (in front of me) makes it less so. Then, there's the dicey step-in situation where you don't want a ski flying down the hill (dialog starts at post #53): https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...50#post5940350

@whatsupdoc had some good follow-up comments.

... Thom

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Fiddle factor with leashes (on again, off again) indeed.

I also like the brake option on spring tours when you might have an approach with spotty coverage. Stevens Gulch Road that leads to the Grays and Torreys trailhead (before it's open to cars obviously) comes to mind, when you might skin up before dawn on a road that is mostly covered with snow except at some sunnier spots, then ski down that same road at the end of the day. If I need to take my skis on/off 5 times on the way up and five times on the way down, then leashes can fuck off. Bindings that let you add/remove brakes easily are nice for this reason.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

I sort of hate this argument because it's all based on experiential evidence. Trying to make sweeping universal statements on super personal gear choices is often foolish.

Hi. Welcome to tech talk. Are you new here?

[3PinGrin]

Fiddle factor with leashes (on again, off again) indeed.

Affixing the leashes to my boot and clipping into the ski (in front of me) makes it less so. Then, there's the dicey step-in situation where you don't want a ski flying down the hill (dialog starts at post #53): https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...50#post5940350

@whatsupdoc had some good follow-up comments.

... Thom

Totally get the fiddle factor concern if crossing roads a lot, etc. Nice thing about the B&D leases is no need to take them off if you don't want since they extend to 6 feet so can leave them on for putting skins, etc. Honestly though, the lobster claw clip is super fast if I do want to unclip. But I admit that even with the extended leash walking very far is a pain with them attached. I think coming from the world of tele gives me a different definition of "fiddle factor" than a/t folks though, ha.

I grasp the leash near the binding to hold the ski steady if needed (re: trying to click in on steep slope). I've buried a ski with brakes that took forever to find, part of why I prefer leashes.

[galibier_numero_un]

Totally get the fiddle factor concern if crossing roads a lot, etc. Nice thing about the B&D leases is no need to take them off if you don't want since they extend to 6 feet so can leave them on for putting skins, etc. Honestly though, the lobster claw clip is super fast if I do want to unclip. But I admit that even with the extended leash walking very far is a pain with them attached. I think coming from the world of tele gives me a different definition of "fiddle factor" than a/t folks though, ha.

I grasp the leash near the binding to hold the ski steady if needed (re: trying to click in on steep slope). I've buried a ski with brakes that took forever to find, part of why I prefer leashes.

One thing that surprised me about B&D leashes is that if you stretch them out on a cold day, they don't fully contract until they warm up. You end up having to take up 4-8" of slack. This is at least the case with my boot attachment method. For those who attach them to their skis the way most people do (clip to their boot by making a loop around it), it may not be a problem.

In any case, it's no big deal, but it did catch me by surprise.

Yeah, the quick off and on to walk across a patch of dirt is still a bummer as ISBD noted.

... Thom

[XXX-er]

if you go brakeless you might lose a ski and get to buy new skis,

other wise there is no advantage to going brakeless

[3PinGrin]

if you go with brakes you might lose a ski and get to buy new skis,

other wise there is no advantage to going with brakes

FIFY

One thing that surprised me about B&D leashes is that if you stretch them out on a cold day, they don't fully contract until they warm up. You end up having to take up 4-8" of slack. This is at least the case with my boot attachment method. For those who attach them to their skis the way most people do (clip to their boot by making a loop around it), it may not be a problem.

In any case, it's no big deal, but it did catch me by surprise.

Yeah, the quick off and on to walk across a patch of dirt is still a bummer as ISBD noted.

... Thom

I stretch the cable some when looping around the boot to leave more extension room. I haven't had that issue yet, but I could see that if it got cold enough what you are saying makes sense. Did it stay that way or retract after a while? I guess if that happened I would just slide the loop further up my boot (but that constitutes fiddling). I just started using them for touring last season I think, maybe I will notice it with more use. I usually don't stretch them taught, and if I'm in a spot where I don't worry about losing a ski I often just unclip.

(and that's where my edit to XXX-er's comment will probably bite me in the ass someday, haha)

[galibier_numero_un]

I stretch the cable some when looping around the boot to leave more extension room. I haven't had that issue yet, but I could see that if it got cold enough what you are saying makes sense. Did it stay that way or retract after a while? I guess if that happened I would just slide the loop further up my boot (but that constitutes fiddling). I just started using them for touring last season I think, maybe I will notice it with more use. I usually don't stretch them taught, and if I'm in a spot where I don't worry about losing a ski I often just unclip.

(and that's where my edit to XXX-er's comment will probably bite me in the ass someday, haha)

I've only had the leashes out with a mid-Winter rig. On cold, Colorado days (say, 5-10F), they're really slow to retract. This was all pre-COVID - before I started attaching them to the my power strap (link, above) which mitigates some of the sag due to how high you attach them. I self-quarantined last Spring, and so I didn't get a handle on warmer weather behavior.

They definitely take time to recover at these temperatures, and likely wouldn't be an issue for the typical way folks attach them (with a wrap around the boot cuff).

The first time I discovered this, I was really pissed off. I was lazy, and instead of lashing my skis together with some Voile straps, I wrapped the leashes around my skis prior to loading them into the rooftop carrier. When I pulled them out and unwrapped them, they retracted to something in the range of 18-20". I never did that again ;-)

... Thom

[3PinGrin]

I've only had the leashes out with a mid-Winter rig. On cold, Colorado days (say, 5-10F), they're really slow to retract. This was all pre-COVID - before I started attaching them to the my power strap (link, above) which mitigates some of the sag due to how high you attach them. I self-quarantined last Spring, and so I didn't get a handle on warmer weather behavior.

They definitely take time to recover at these temperatures, and likely wouldn't be an issue for the typical way folks attach them (with a wrap around the boot cuff).

The first time I discovered this, I was really pissed off. I was lazy, and instead of lashing my skis together with some Voile straps, I wrapped the leashes around my skis prior to loading them into the rooftop carrier. When I pulled them out and unwrapped them, they retracted to something in the range of 18-20". I never did that again ;-)

... Thom

dooooh!

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[kootenayskier]

In 15 years of using Dynafit and G3 leashes, I came to realize that on most of the rare occasions that I fell and could have utilized the leash, the leash broke. I’ve recently been using brakes (G3 Zeds) and other than the slight extra weight, I’m not seeing any downside.

[XXX-er]

I do know a girl who's ski rocketed off at high speed and the guy went and got it for her,

it was early in the relationship so he looked like a real hero and they are still togetehr

so there is that

(and that's where my edit to XXX-er's comment will probably bite me in the ass someday, haha)

we buy these devices to allow us to slide DH at great speed, some of us fail to mitigate a skis penchant for sliding away unchecked by brake orleash

do tell me when it happens cuz I love saying ... I told you so