USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

[toast2266]

Fact: Many trails that don't see much traffic due to the effort required to reach them will see exponentially more traffic if everyone is on ebikes. In some cases that is good for trails that don't get enough use to see regular maintenance, in some cases that is bad as increased use is increased use regardless what you make of it.

That loamy trail in late August? Gonna be blown out like the rest of the trails people have been shredding all summer. Not because the motor itself is tearing the trail up but because it had 1,500 tires on it last week instead of 25.

Maybe not the same issue somewhere like BC where there is just so much space in relation to metro areas but here it would make a big difference.

Trails you put in the effort to get fit and go further than anyone else for a bit of solitude? Forget it. I suppose now I just get an ebike and go further? But is there really enough legal trail to get THAT far away? I mean, getting 20 miles from the car one way on a MTB is a hell of a task but finding places where you can get that far away and legally ride a bike is even more difficult. Now I have to find a place I can get 40 miles from my car one way on a non motorized trail to get the same solitude? Does not exist without entering wilderness. I get that most riders who just wanna shred trail with the bros can't even remotely grasp this.

The next question would be are these e-bike riders going to use that motor to haul in trimmers for brushing and chainsaws for logging and do maintenance like the moto riders do? Sure beats the hell out of the handsaw I bring on early season rides. If so then perhaps it will be worth it. Maybe places like Icicle Ridge and upper Nason will get brushed out.

I am selfishly a bit disappointed that a lot of energy that was devoted to wilderness access is now going backwards towards ebike access to trails we can already ride on. I feel like the fucking ebikes were about 5 years too early. But most people don't want to bushwhack and hike-a-bike as much as I do so maybe it was never going to happen anyway.

On the other hand, there are some amazing motorized trail networks that I ride on my MTB that would be a blast to put in monster days on an ebike. 15-20k days I would imagine would be possible...but it is already legal

This is the reason that leaving the decisions to the local land managers is ultimately a good idea. What will work in some rural areas probably isn't viable in areas closer to population centers. That doesn't mean that there aren't some inherent problems with local managers making the call (as have been laid out up thread), but it's really the only solution.

And for whatever it's worth, I've used the ebike a fair amount for trail work. They're great for that. Even if it's just spinning up a gated dirt road to get closer to where I'm working.

[grinch]

Fact: Many trails that don't see much traffic due to the effort required to reach them will see exponentially more traffic if everyone is on ebikes. In some cases that is good for trails that don't get enough use to see regular maintenance, in some cases that is bad as increased use is increased use regardless what you make of it.

That loamy trail in late August? Gonna be blown out like the rest of the trails people have been shredding all summer. Not because the motor itself is tearing the trail up but because it had 1,500 tires on it last week instead of 25.

Maybe not the same issue somewhere like BC where there is just so much space in relation to metro areas but here it would make a big difference.

Trails you put in the effort to get fit and go further than anyone else for a bit of solitude? Forget it. I suppose now I just get an ebike and go further? But is there really enough legal trail to get THAT far away? I mean, getting 20 miles from the car one way on a MTB is a hell of a task but finding places where you can get that far away and legally ride a bike is even more difficult. Now I have to find a place I can get 40 miles from my car one way on a non motorized trail to get the same solitude? Does not exist without entering wilderness. I get that most riders who just wanna shred trail with the bros can't even remotely grasp this.

The next question would be are these e-bike riders going to use that motor to haul in trimmers for brushing and chainsaws for logging and do maintenance like the moto riders do? Sure beats the hell out of the handsaw I bring on early season rides. If so then perhaps it will be worth it. Maybe places like Icicle Ridge and upper Nason will get brushed out.

I am selfishly a bit disappointed that a lot of energy that was devoted to wilderness access is now going backwards towards ebike access to trails we can already ride on. I feel like the fucking ebikes were about 5 years too early. But most people don't want to bushwhack and hike-a-bike as much as I do so maybe it was never going to happen anyway.

On the other hand, there are some amazing motorized trail networks that I ride on my MTB that would be a blast to put in monster days on an ebike. 15-20k days I would imagine would be possible...but it is already legal

I appreciate your point and counterpoint approach and i think theyre both valid concerns. Our bc trails arent loamy. Theyre hammered in from years of use. There will be more use but there will also be more trails put in. Same as it always was. Theyve definitely shown their use in trail building and maintenance

Nope, false equivalency. You been playing in political asshatery?

I did shiver a bit with that one with its deebflection spin.
Your post did remind me of the continuous backcountry news reports on facebook. They list the weekly SAR reports and inevitably theyve plucked a number of scramblers that got off route and cliffed out and needed slung off some peak after spending the night mixed in with sprang ankle hikers or crashed mtb riders and the odd heart condition. Its very similar every week. SAR is busy , especially this summer. The comments are also very similar. Its always the 3 or 4 that say "charge them for rescue!!" And then the 5 or 6 couch potatoes that say "close the backcountry!!". Doesnt matter to them because they fon't partake and fail to see any benefit to the activity. Youre not one of them so i responded, or are you?

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[climberevan]

Fact: Many trails that don't see much traffic due to the effort required to reach them will see exponentially more traffic if everyone is on ebikes. In some cases that is good for trails that don't get enough use to see regular maintenance, in some cases that is bad as increased use is increased use regardless what you make of it.

That loamy trail in late August? Gonna be blown out like the rest of the trails people have been shredding all summer. Not because the motor itself is tearing the trail up but because it had 1,500 tires on it last week instead of 25.

Trails you put in the effort to get fit and go further than anyone else for a bit of solitude? Forget it. I suppose now I just get an ebike and go further? But is there really enough legal trail to get THAT far away? I mean, getting 20 miles from the car one way on a MTB is a hell of a task but finding places where you can get that far away and legally ride a bike is even more difficult. Now I have to find a place I can get 40 miles from my car one way on a non motorized trail to get the same solitude?

This is my biggest concern.

As an example, I just did a ride way deep in the Tushar mts that requires about 20mi and 7k just to get to the trails I was aiming at. Mopeds will make that trivial.

I just received a new piece of info, courtesy of a really old friend and trusted riding buddy. He was considering the new Levo SL so that he could keep up with his fitter friends (e-mopeds are legal in most of the trails he rides). However, after renting several of them and riding back to back on familiar trails, he said they just give too much boost. Even on low he found that he could not get a workout without going really fast. To me this reinforces the assertion that they will be a menace uphill as they become more common. Maybe for old disabled people they won't be, but put someone with an FTP of 250w on one and add another 250, and he's hauling ass.

[toast2266]

However, after renting several of them and riding back to back on familiar trails, he said they just give too much boost. Even on low he found that he could not get a workout without going really fast. To me this reinforces the assertion that they will be a menace uphill as they become more common. Maybe for old disabled people they won't be, but put someone with an FTP of 250w on one and add another 250, and he's hauling ass.

That's been my experience on any trails that aren't fairly steep and technical. If the climb is smooth and not too technical, I never really get my heart rate up, and I'm going kind of absurdly fast (at least compared to my pace on a mountain bike). The techier the climb is, the more I work (although I'm still putting in a fraction of the effort that I do on a mountain bike).

[grinch]

Really!? Are you guys trolling? Maybe drinking skougs half empties?

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[toast2266]

Not trolling. On normal single track climbs, ebikes make things pretty easy and pretty fast. That's in trail mode - I never really use the max power settings.

The speed isn't really a problem around here since it's all moto legal trail, but it's not a great workout.

[grinch]

Seriously? Eco mode is on average half the assist of trail(i know trail worls off the tourque sensor). Boom there you go, "more of a workout". That was ez, next ? Whays wrong with a workout at endurance pace , at the same time getting more down? If you want to go pound intervals or sprints push up steeper trail or take your Pbike. No escaping intervals on a Pbike. To get laps on the E its endurance pace in eco as much as possible(3-4hrs @endurance pace).
Also its not necessarily easier climbing steep tech. Your heart rate is maxed because youre climbing steeper trails than you can on a Pbike. MotoX trails have long ups/downs. One is boost all the way up that is continuous tech trying to recover a bit wherever you can and then a fun ride backdown the same trail. Battery lasts 1 1/2. Itd be an hour if it was all off road and i didnt include the roadwork to it and back, also in boost.
Sure you could go on ez trails in boost and get no workout but that sounds boring as. You could go in "trail" mode on the same ez and it be boring too. Its ez to plan a ride according to your heart rate zone you want to hit or atleast a rough idea where your HR is. Steeper trail with less assist gives you a higher heart rate, to state the obvious.


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[brutah]

Seriously? Eco mode is on average half the assist of trail(i know trail worls off the tourque sensor). Boom there you go, "more of a workout". That was ez, next ? Whays wrong with a workout at endurance pace , at the same time getting more down? If you want to go pound intervals or sprints push up steeper trail or take your Pbike. No escaping intervals on a Pbike. To get laps on the E its endurance pace in eco as much as possible(3-4hrs @endurance pace).
Also its not necessarily easier climbing steep tech. Your heart rate is maxed because youre climbing steeper trails than you can on a Pbike. MotoX trails have long ups/downs. One is boost all the way up that is continuous tech trying to recover a bit wherever you can and then a fun ride backdown the same trail. Battery lasts 1 1/2. Itd be an hour if i didnt include the roadwork to it and back, also in boost.
Sure you could go on ez trails in boost and get no workout but that sounds boring as. You could go in "trail" mode on the same ez and it be boring too. Its ez to plan a ride according to your heart rate zone you want to hit or atleast a rough idea where your HR is. Steeper trail with less assist gives you a higher heart rate, to state the obvious.


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Honestly, I think this guy does get more of a workout on his ebike..... Mainly because he spends all this time defending ebiking.

Seriously, no one gives a shit that you eMTB. Good for you, I'm glad you like ebiking so does my 72 year old dad that's had two open heart surgeries. Anyone who eMTBs who isn't old or has a pre-existing health condition is lame AF in my opinion and probably fat or at the least has a soft neck. You won't convince me otherwise because that's the antedotal evidence I've gather out on the trails over the last few years says that's the ebiker crowd.

I like to "earn my turns," you don't, I don't care how you justify it. And it's fine with me. People also prefer to ride chairlifts to ski and most of the time I'd prefer to hike up the mountain first. It is what it is. I don't think either method is better, but I do think the more ebikes are accepted the more mountain biking and the trails that are built for biking will change. And that is unfortunate because I don't think an eMTB can handle all of the trails my MTB can.

[toast2266]

Seriously? Eco mode is on average half the assist of trail(i know trail worls off the tourque sensor). Boom there you go, "more of a workout". That was ez, next ? Whays wrong with a workout at endurance pace , at the same time getting more down? If you want to go pound intervals or sprints push up steeper trail or take your Pbike. No escaping intervals on a Pbike. To get laps on the E its endurance pace in eco as much as possible(3-4hrs @endurance pace).
Also its not necessarily easier climbing steep tech. Your heart rate is maxed because youre climbing steeper trails than you can on a Pbike. MotoX trails have long ups/downs. One is boost all the way up that is continuous tech trying to recover a bit wherever you can and then a fun ride backdown the same trail. Battery lasts 1 1/2. Itd be an hour if it was all off road and i didnt include the roadwork to it and back, also in boost.
Sure you could go on ez trails in boost and get no workout but that sounds boring as. You could go in "trail" mode on the same ez and it be boring too. Its ez to plan a ride according to your heart rate zone you want to hit or atleast a rough idea where your HR is. Steeper trail with less assist gives you a higher heart rate, to state the obvious.


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That's a lot of words. I'm guessing I'm just really good at ebiking. That shit's easy. Which is why they're a hot commodity with the elderly.

[jm2e]

I’m not out to get a workout. I’m out to get laps and have fun.
On a full charge I can do 2 laps. Each lap is about 10 miles and 1500’ of vert. 60% eco, 37% trail, 3% turbo. More liberal than that and I’m wasting juice and probably won’t make the distance. The whole thing takes several hours. I climb about as fast as a fit & motivated XC guy. But I don’t suffer so much. My ass starts to hurt though.
I can carry a battery sawzall and loppers too. Or a rake if I don’t mind it sticking out like a flagpole.
I’ve seen vastly more anti-ebike sentiment in here than I have in the outside world.


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[grinch]

Well lets see the stats. You have a levo. You can run a heartrate off your app and also figure how many calories you burn on strava or komoot or maybe even on your app. Actual there's a mode on your levo where you set the target heart rate and it gives you the amount of assist required to maintain your heart rate. Its just more consistant on the emtb rather than spiking your heart rate on an mtb and being in some level of oxygen debt for the downhills.
This just happened to be on my "suggestions" when i turned on yt. Science on a stumpy and a levo. No a super pro channel but the stats make sense.



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[grinch]

Honestly, I think this guy does get more of a workout on his ebike..... Mainly because he spends all this time defending ebiking.

Seriously, no one gives a shit that you eMTB. Good for you, I'm glad you like ebiking so does my 72 year old dad that's had two open heart surgeries. Anyone who eMTBs who isn't old or has a pre-existing health condition is lame AF in my opinion and probably fat or at the least has a soft neck. You won't convince me otherwise because that's the antedotal evidence I've gather out on the trails over the last few years says that's the ebiker crowd.

I like to "earn my turns," you don't, I don't care how you justify it. And it's fine with me. People also prefer to ride chairlifts to ski and most of the time I'd prefer to hike up the mountain first. It is what it is. I don't think either method is better, but I do think the more ebikes are accepted the more mountain biking and the trails that are built for biking will change. And that is unfortunate because I don't think an eMTB can handle all of the trails my MTB can.

So dont buy one or ride one and continue posting opinions based on limited knowledge. There's too many innaccuracies to explain in there and you wouldnt get it anyway. I do reserve the right to correct anyone at anytime that just spews a bunch of innacuracies though.

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[rod9301]

You have to look at Europe where e bikes are very popular.
You'd be hard pressed to find a young, cut, capable mountain biker who's not on a e bike.

Why?

Because they get a lot more downhill and they are rested going down.

It's sad that people put then down without having experienced them.

Butt i bet that all the haters will be on e bikes in the next couple of years.

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[grinch]

Ya and why would they start and contribute to this thread if theyre not interested in the facts. Wouldnt a person want to compile the stats before the terse letter to the forest manager?

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[Bunion 2020]

You have to look at Europe where e bikes are very popular.
You'd be hard pressed to find a young, cut, capable mountain biker who's not on a e bike.

Why?

Because they get a lot more downhill and they are rested going down.

It's sad that people put then down without having experienced them.

Butt i bet that all the haters will be on e bikes in the next couple of years.

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You keep going back to Europe as an example. This (the USA) isn't Europe. Hate to break it to you but in the past, most trail conflicts between Mtn Bikers and other user groups was the result of the DH traffic. I see little benefit in increasing that amount of DH traffic.

[climberevan]

Have people forgotten that cycling is supposed to take effort? Actually, based on the unbelievable increase in shuttling and moped use in recent years I guess they have.

I agree with Bunion that the issue we're concerned about is the possible legalization of mopeds on non-motorized trails in the USA. It's right there in the thread title. We don't care how they do it in Canada (which has fewer people than California) or Europe.

As I've said before, I own and ride off-road motorcycles. They have their place: on trails designated for motorized use! I will argue vehemently that we must keep some trails for human powered use only.

Oh, and special for Grinch since we're all engaged in personal disputes here: next time you're skiing in the backcountry and I go whizzing by you on the skintrack on my way to 4 times as many laps, maybe ask yourself if more fitness (from pedaling) would actually be a nice thing to have.

[snowaddict91]

I could have used an ebike yesterday. The climb tired me out so much that I couldn't ride at 100% on the way down. But...I derived so much satisfaction from doing the climb in 2:10 and I would have had no satisfaction to gain from the climb if I had assistance, so there's that.

[Quadzilla]

Thanks to Grinch for having the energy to put up with the baloney, hearsay and just bullshit re Emtb and the people who ride them. So, clarification is coming and game over for the haters. Me, older. fit, not fat, respectful and courteous. You won't notice me, like a ghost and by the time you want to yell, gone..........

[rod9301]

Have people forgotten that cycling is supposed to take effort? Actually, based on the unbelievable increase in shuttling and moped use in recent years I guess they have.

I agree with Bunion that the issue we're concerned about is the possible legalization of mopeds on non-motorized trails in the USA. It's right there in the thread title. We don't care how they do it in Canada (which has fewer people than California) or Europe.

As I've said before, I own and ride off-road motorcycles. They have their place: on trails designated for motorized use! I will argue vehemently that we must keep some trails for human powered use only.

Oh, and special for Grinch since we're all engaged in personal disputes here: next time you're skiing in the backcountry and I go whizzing by you on the skintrack on my way to 4 times as many laps, maybe ask yourself if more fitness (from pedaling) would actually be a nice thing to have.

Why don't you care what's happening in Europe?

It's this insular attitude that is damaging the us.

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[snowaddict91]

Why don't you care what's happening in Europe?

It's this insular attitude that is damaging the us.

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I'll be the ignorant one and start asking questions.

Are Euro trails used by horses and ignorant American hikers?

What is user conflict like between user groups in Europe? Better or worse than the US?

Are off leash dogs common?

Are ebikes regulated in busy trail systems near metro areas? Ex. SLC, Park City, Front Range CO.

[californiagrown]

Have people forgotten that cycling is supposed to take effort?

Lol, you seem to have forgotten that cycling is supposed to be enjoyable, first and foremost. Effort is the necessary evil that cyclists have been chipping away against with new bike technology since penny farthings were a thing. Or, if you're a masochist and get your joy from making things as painful as possible, there are still fully rigid steel single speeds for you to get your rocks off.

[toast2266]

Why don't you care what's happening in Europe?

It's this insular attitude that is damaging the us.

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I'm fairly positive the US Forest Service, which this thread is about, doesn't give a shit about Europe.

[rod9301]

I'm fairly positive the US Forest Service, which this thread is about, doesn't give a shit about Europe.

Yeah, they don't give a shit, enough is why the e mtb issue is debated now, instead of seeing what's been happening in other parts of the world and taking action 5 years ago.

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[rod9301]

I'll be the ignorant one and start asking questions.

Are Euro trails used by horses and ignorant American hikers?

What is user conflict like between user groups in Europe? Better or worse than the US?

Are off leash dogs common?

Are ebikes regulated in busy trail systems near metro areas? Ex. SLC, Park City, Front Range CO.

Ok, the simple answer is that class 1 e bikes are allowed everywhere mountain bikes are allowed.



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[SkiLyft]

Well lets see the stats. You have a levo. You can run a heartrate off your app and also figure how many calories you burn on strava or komoot or maybe even on your app.

Do we know that these apps can actually calculate kcals burnt accurately with an emtb?

I know Strava uses power output and a coefficient for human efficiency which would be different for an emtb!

We like to throw around “facts” in here but I’m legit curious has anyone figured out how to measure kcals burnt on a emtb?


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