Why I dislike e-bikes

[grinch]

That works. Love talking heads. Ill just listen instead

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[Canada1]

Our community has made all of these rules about where they’re allowed, and where they aren’t. But there is no consequence for not following the rules, and I think a great number have realized that. So, trails that are clearly posted, have e bikers blazing by you on the them. I’ve tried to just not care, but if I’m honest, it anoys me. A couple years ago I’d say something. Now I just keep pedaling and make a point to say thank you or something positive to the handicap and older people that have the access plate.

[SkiLyft]

^^ that post has me thinking.

I am not sure the tact of allowing eMTB only on specific trails within a trail network is a good option. I think it’s either yes or no on all trails within a network.

I am softening a lot on this issue as of late; I’ve seen a ton more eMTB on my local trails and things are status quo. In my opinion eMTB are good for the sport as they allow more people to access the sport (disability/advanced age) and allow for higher reps for faster progression. Also from a trail building perspective the utility is clearly there.

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[Quadzilla]

Interesting read, True/False or bias but shows the strength of horse money

https://www.yahoo.com/news/electric-...KwUA5tECKyNTT5

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Just shows to go ya, people love to fight.

[TBS]

The issue to me is that the Emtb riders I’ve seen are pretty clueless. No idea of where they can go nor how to handle a relatively heavy bike.

Example yesterday. Range Rover with two ebikes on the back arrive at our local trailhead and park next to me. The trail system is 90% USFS singletrack with some 2x scattered around. Man and woman ~45-55yo.

When I said “did you know that ebikes aren’t allowed on USFS singletrack?” They looked at me like was speaking Swahili, mounted up and rode off - down the singletrack.

About 45 min later we had stopped to regroup for a moment and these two came rolling up, lost as shit, no map. Pulled out the map I keep for such situations and explained how to get back to main trail. Reminded them that ebikes not OK on USFS singletrack. They thanked me, saddled up and left in the opposite direction.

About 100 yards later the lady laid the bike down trying to negotiate an easy but rocky section in the trail. Couldn’t pick the bike back up without the guys help.

We rode another hour and the RR was still there when we left the trailhead. There was still another 3 hours of daylight so prolly no worries.

[evdog]

Does Good trail etiquette include not riding where you are not allowed? Nevermind it won't matter, these people would hate you no matter what type of bike you are on. To them a Motorcycle, an E-bike or a Mountain Bike are all spawn of the devil.

When e-bikes first appeared in Socal and you called them out on trails they weren't allowed you'd get an "Oh, I didn't know" or "this is a class 1 e-bike, it's allowed". Now most of them just tell you to fuck off. I'm sure the hikers who yell at them after getting buzzed at high speed get a similar treatment. HOHs probably love it because it gives them more ammunition when they write their letters. Happened to a friend last week who called out a group of young guys on e-motos (sur-ron type motos with foot pegs and throttles) in a local park. He got a lot of four letter words back in response.

I am not sure the tact of allowing eMTB only on specific trails within a trail network is a good option. I think it’s either yes or no on all trails within a network.

A lot of mountain bikers have been calling for separate trails for hikers and bikers to help avoid user conflict. It's often accepted that a climbing only trail for bikes can be shared with hikers since bikes go relatively slow when climbing. Then have some bike-only downhill trails. E-bikers would throw a wrench in the uphill bike sharing with hikers given how fast they go. I'd say fine, build a separate climbing trail for bikes. But around here it can be a ~10 year process to get any new trail approved and built. Not realistic when we need it now, and e-bikers don't seem to be doing any advocacy of their own. And that's assuming they would abide by any use designation if biker/hiker use was split up more. So far, they've shown they don't give a fuck and will ride wherever they want.

[climberevan]

Not realistic when we need it now, and e-bikers don't seem to be doing any advocacy of their own. And that's assuming they would abide by any use designation if biker/hiker use was split up more. So far, they've shown they don't give a fuck and will ride wherever they want.

This is their big problem. The whole "I have a new toy and I will play with it wherever I want regardless of any rules to the contrary" behavior is making mopeders a lot of enemies. They would be better off if they would advocate for acceptance. Instead of trying to convince anyone, they just go straight to "fuck you, I'll do what I want!". This new tech has come at a bad time for society, when we're less likely to try to emapthize in any sphere.

The Yahoo article was good, IMO.

[farmguy]

Not single track related but a growing problem for ebikes in general
My wife and I spent a few days camping at a state park here in Wa State and I would guess 70-80% of the campers had some form of ebike, from scooters up to the 50lb full squish fat tire bikes. Campground has paved loops and a paved activity trail and it looked liked rush traffic at times. the problem was the speed at which kids to grey hairs rode these things, if me and my buddies kitted up and rode our road bikes this fast, we would be banned. Watching these bikes you could tell the expierance level as zero for riding at that speed. Soon there will better be a limit on when and where you can ride ebikes,

[detrusor]

^^^^^

And somehow helmets don’t exist, at least in my neck of the woods.
There was an elderly fatality on an e bike here not to long ago. Old lady going was fast on a flat paved bike path interspersed with driveways hit a vehicle backing out. Non e bike she’s likely going 7-10 mph…30 plus on ebike. Dead on the scene. Tragic


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[XXX-er]

yeah even tho they are limited to 32 kph its more speed than a lot of people can handle especaily if they were never into bikes or motorcycles

[Truckee Joe]

Interesting yesterday I saw signs up on SP land that said no E bikes. Not even the private land owners want them on their trails.


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[alias_rice]

This is their big problem. The whole "I have a new toy and I will play with it wherever I want regardless of any rules to the contrary" behavior is making mopeders a lot of enemies. They would be better off if they would advocate for acceptance. Instead of trying to convince anyone, they just go straight to "fuck you, I'll do what I want!". This new tech has come at a bad time for society, when we're less likely to try to emapthize in any sphere.

The Yahoo article was good, IMO.

The same can be said for the other side of the argument. If mountain bikers did a little outreach and education instead of mocking and name calling, they may find a bunch of new trail advocates. At the end of the day ebikers and normal bikers have way more in common when it comes to trail use and would make pretty good allies to keep trails open, and to build new trails. Ebikers are older and typically have more time and money for the cause.

[grinch]

Cleaning the city bridge today. Fair amount of g ma's and g pa's on ebikes just cruising, no stress. No prob with the e scoots but they seem to be the fastest here and a but shaky.


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[summit]

The classic eMTB interaction is:
Climbing: "yea sure I'll dismount and get out of your way. oh my god those old people just smoked me I should work out more! wait, were they wearing jeans?"
Descending: "how the hell did I catch up to them so quick? oh... they were on ebikes and they don't know how to actually ride them."

That said, I'm not anti. However, there needs to be HUGE onus of responsibility placed on dealers and a huge community/industry outreach on etiquette and skills vs limits: a push to the point of giving people very firm concern on the level that we give when we see gapes in the BC with no avalanche gear. Perhaps some sort of simplified know before you go style advocacy: get the gear, get the skills/ettiquette, get the picture We have a bunch of people joining the mtb community and can either enculturate them or face the consequences.

I have been waiting for a spate of SAR calls for oblivious eMTBs:
"Ran out of talent, come get me"
"I'm lost, come get me"
"My battery is dead come get me"

But this hasn't happened... yet...

[greasyslope]

Most posts in this thread belong in one called “Why I dislike ebikers.”

Sort of the opposite of most of my experience with dirt bikes and dirt bikers. The people have mostly been great, but nothing helps with the noise and trail degradation. That’s why I dislike dirt bikes.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

The same can be said for the other side of the argument. If mountain bikers did a little outreach and education instead of mocking and name calling, they may find a bunch of new trail advocates. At the end of the day ebikers and normal bikers have way more in common when it comes to trail use and would make pretty good allies to keep trails open, and to build new trails. Ebikers are older and typically have more time and money for the cause.

Not e-bike related but relevant I think:

There are a few multi use trails (no e-bikes allowed) I run on with some frequency (I don't even own a mountain bike at the moment)...

-One is steep and rocky and has a hike-a-bike section. You need solid skills and fitness to enjoy riding here. Never had a bad interaction with a MTBer on this trail over 50 or so runs when I've passed hundreds of bikers.

-One is moderate loop close to town. I would never run here on the weekend as it is too crowded to enjoy, but on weekdays it's fine. There is a posted direction for bikes that changes on different days. I run the opposite direction and it's mostly fine with an occasional out of shape rider who doesn't want to yield (note that I always move aside for oncoming bikes when it's possible- it's just easier for a runner in most situations, without even slowing down).

-Then there are a couple trails that are popular with beginning mountain bikers. I don't touch these on the weekend either. I mostly run these trails to connect to better, more remote trails where bikes aren't allowed. On these trails I've had frequent interactions with entitled turds with no sense of etiquette. If they didn't link up to one of the prettiest sections of trail in the area I wouldn't set foot on them.

All these trails have clearly posted signs about who yields to who. I don't think education is the issue. The issue is indoctrination. Americans aren't exactly the most rule abiding group. But experience mountain bikers understand what it takes to get and preserve trail access. They understand how a vocal minority of wealthy inbred horse people and old farts scared of fast moving objects will seize any opportunity to champion restricted access. When riders become a part of the local community they start behaving in a way that reflects the greater good for that community.

Now there is a huge influx of novices on e-bikes. Many of them older and wealthier. If they are welcomed and indoctrinated into the local bike scene they become an asset. If they are insulted and rejected they become a liability destined to piss off the lady who rides her pony on smooth double track couple for one hour a month, but spends 5 hours trying to get bikes banned. As irritating as some e-bikers may be, I think the smart play is to enlist their help.

[summit]

Now there is a huge influx of novices on e-bikes. Many of them older and wealthier. If they are welcomed and indoctrinated into the local bike scene they become an asset. If they are insulted and rejected they become a liability destined to piss off the lady who rides her pony on smooth double track couple for one hour a month, but spends 5 hours trying to get bikes banned. As irritating as some e-bikers may be, I think the smart play is to enlist their help.

For emphasis!

[skinipenem]

Not e-bike related but relevant I think:

There are a few multi use trails (no e-bikes allowed) I run on with some frequency (I don't even own a mountain bike at the moment)...

-One is steep and rocky and has a hike-a-bike section. You need solid skills and fitness to enjoy riding here. Never had a bad interaction with a MTBer on this trail over 50 or so runs when I've passed hundreds of bikers.

-One is moderate loop close to town. I would never run here on the weekend as it is too crowded to enjoy, but on weekdays it's fine. There is a posted direction for bikes that changes on different days. I run the opposite direction and it's mostly fine with an occasional out of shape rider who doesn't want to yield (note that I always move aside for oncoming bikes when it's possible- it's just easier for a runner in most situations, without even slowing down).

-Then there are a couple trails that are popular with beginning mountain bikers. I don't touch these on the weekend either. I mostly run these trails to connect to better, more remote trails where bikes aren't allowed. On these trails I've had frequent interactions with entitled turds with no sense of etiquette. If they didn't link up to one of the prettiest sections of trail in the area I wouldn't set foot on them.

All these trails have clearly posted signs about who yields to who. I don't think education is the issue. The issue is indoctrination. Americans aren't exactly the most rule abiding group. But experience mountain bikers understand what it takes to get and preserve trail access. They understand how a vocal minority of wealthy inbred horse people and old farts scared of fast moving objects will seize any opportunity to champion restricted access. When riders become a part of the local community they start behaving in a way that reflects the greater good for that community.

Now there is a huge influx of novices on e-bikes. Many of them older and wealthier. If they are welcomed and indoctrinated into the local bike scene they become an asset. If they are insulted and rejected they become a liability destined to piss off the lady who rides her pony on smooth double track couple for one hour a month, but spends 5 hours trying to get bikes banned. As irritating as some e-bikers may be, I think the smart play is to enlist their help.

Well said.

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[skinipenem]

The classic xc interaction is:
Climbing: "yea sure I'll dismount and get out of your way. oh my god those skinny people just smoked me I should work out more! wait, were they wearing spandex?"
Descending: "how the hell did I catch up to them so quick? oh... they were on xc mountain bikes and they don't know how to actually ride ."

Fify. #sarc #throwback heydudeslowdown

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[grinch]

Nailed it

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[summit]

Fify. #sarc #throwback heydudeslowdown

Well played!

[toast2266]

Now there is a huge influx of novices on e-bikes. Many of them older and wealthier. If they are welcomed and indoctrinated into the local bike scene they become an asset. If they are insulted and rejected they become a liability destined to piss off the lady who rides her pony on smooth double track couple for one hour a month, but spends 5 hours trying to get bikes banned. As irritating as some e-bikers may be, I think the smart play is to enlist their help.

This is 100% correct.

But I also see a lot of advocates that are working their asses off on various trail projects. Reaching out to ebikers is just another thing to add to an already full plate. So I get why there is some level of annoyance that the ebike community isn't taking the initiative there.

[summit]

TReaching out to ebikers is just another thing to add to an already full plate.

It might not be what they want to prioritize, but ignore it at our own peril.

So I get why there is some level of annoyance that the ebike community isn't taking the initiative there.

What community? They don't have a large one. It is a bunch of newer and more casual users.

Enculturate them into our community, or face the consequences.

[climberevan]

I think the onus is upon the user of the new device to figure out how to be accepted. The legacy trail users will accept or deny the mopeders based on their behavior, so it seems that they should be on their best behavior in order to gain acceptance. Unfortunately some of them seem hell-bent on ruining any chance of that.

I will say that in my many weekly interactions with mopeders on my local trails (none of which are moped-legal & all of which have "no motor vehicles" signs prominently displayed), the majority of them are polite. Some of them even yield to me when they are climbing and I'm descending (which is always a bit awkward bc I can't know they are poaching on a moped until I've already tried to stop to yield to them). So, even though they are poaching a trail, their behavior is usually pretty good and I don't call them out. The ones who don't yield get called out hard, whether they are riding a moped or a bicycle. If mopeders took it upon themselves to police their less well behaved members (though I agree that there isn't much of a community of them yet), they could avoid making so many enemies.

The industry is hugely at fault here, as Summit says. Obviously there is no data available, but I'd bet that 90% of the new moped buyers are not informed that their new toy is not permitted on many trails. Bike shops and moped manufacturers are happy to take the $$. It's really short-term thinking, IMO, because the growing backlash is making them look like assholes.