Official ATK Binding Thread

[I've seen black diamonds!]

The wildsnow testing doesn't tell the whole picture. The heel also matters. Some heel designs develop play over time, and offer little resistance to the first few millimeters of rotation. Also some tech toes will deform significantly if you apply a rotational force (such as pulling the boot heel to one side while the toe pics are engaged). Minimalist aluminum toes can get less stiff over time.

I'd add that if you had a prerelease with tech bindings and you removed your skis to change over before descending, and you weren't absolutely meticulous about how you stepped back in, there is always a chance that a bit of ice or debrief was the problem. I know most here know this but here is a procedure that works:

1) Click the toes closed and open a few times with your hands. This will break up ice underneath the toe wings. Use your fingers to brush away the loose ice.
2) Step in to the toe piece swing your foot forward and back a few time (you might want to lock the toe first if you are somewhere precarious). The swinging helps displace little bits of snow or ice that might be in the toe fittings.
3) Lock the toes (or unlock then lock again). If it takes more force than usual to do so, you need to fix something. Return to steps 1 and 2 or use something skinny to clean out your tech fittings and dislodge debris under your toe wings.
4) Don't forget to unlock the toes before you ski down.

Or better yet, keep your skis on while you rip skins.

[dub_xion]

I’ve always done a bit of tuning on any binding, DIN or tech, to address pre-release, or too tight a release, after I first get them, and that amount has really varied really up to maybe 2. Sorry for the not definitive answer, just suggesting you bump it up maybe 1 and see how that goes, which is what I’d do, especially if both pre-released.

Edit: that said, I don’t have any experience with ATK, just Dynafits, G3s and alpine DIN binders
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[NorCalNomad]

To add in to potential prerelease issues.

My BD branded Trofeos (1st year they imported them) had their toe screw holes not perfectly drilled (ie the hole locations were out of spec). So when I went to mount them with a paper template that was true, they cocked over my boots enough that they would prerelease. Went back to put in inserts that were lined up with the boot in the bindings straight (nothing like enlarging a holes by like 1-.5mm off it's center...) and all of the pre release issues went away. So now when I mount inserts for those bindings I have to use one toe screw to hold them in place. Line them up with the boots in the heel pieces. Release the boot carefully and mark where the holes ACTUALLY are, then drill out my insert holes.

I probably should have warrantied them in the first place....

[galibier_numero_un]

To add in to potential prerelease issues.

My BD branded Trofeos (1st year they imported them) had their toe screw holes not perfectly drilled (ie the hole locations were out of spec). So when I went to mount them with a paper template that was true, they cocked over my boots enough that they would prerelease. Went back to put in inserts that were lined up with the boot in the bindings straight (nothing like enlarging a holes by like 1-.5mm off it's center...) and all of the pre release issues went away. So now when I mount inserts for those bindings I have to use one toe screw to hold them in place. Line them up with the boots in the heel pieces. Release the boot carefully and mark where the holes ACTUALLY are, then drill out my insert holes.

I probably should have warrantied them in the first place....

Rule #1 when mounting a binding for the first time: TEST MOUNT. No exceptions.

So the paper template was true? I'm having trouble believing that.

Assuming the binders were QC failures ... 3 things about printing to a laser printer.

1. The scale will change from print sample to sample. I print a 5" scale line on the templates I draw, and not only are they slightly distorted (the X-axis might measure 4.991" and the Y-axis 5.003"). It will change on the next print job. This much distortion will mess up a tech binding mount (heel pin alignment).

2. I've given up punching and drilling all the holes at once, and use the binding for hole #s 2-4 on each binding. I'll make a mini-punch on #2-4, but don't drill them until verifying and moving them as necessary.

3. I use a straight pin to pre-punch the holes in the template - at a desk with good light and magnification. This greatly improves punching accuracy. If you just use a punch when taped to the ski, you'll be way off.

Having said that, the template then becomes a means of positioning the toe and heel for fore-aft location, and in the spirit of @XXXer, the binding becomes the jig for 75% of the holes.

I assume you know about verifying heel pin alignment before punching and drilling toe holes #2, 3, and 4 (one at a time). Loosening/tightening the toe screws to finagle the toe into alignment is a recipe for disaster.

... Thom

[tdpdx]

I assume you know about verifying heel pin alignment before punching and drilling toe holes #2, 3, and 4 (one at a time). Loosening/tightening the toe screws to finagle the toe into alignment is a recipe for disaster.

... Thom

Assume I know nothing...

Edit: Really though, please explain your process for alignment. The last time I mounted a pin binding was a Beast 14.

[NorCalNomad]

Thom, yeah I'm sure that everything was to scale and true (or not true). I'm a professional designer, and have been a professional wrench and manufacture. So in my day to day I have to regularly check scale of the patterns and parts I get back from Asia manufacturing partners it's the first thing I always check (nothing like burning hours of worth of work cause the scale was off to teach you that lesson). I've checked my paper multiple ways, checked the holes I punched, even directly measured the bindings to confirm.

You are right in that I should have practice mounted, but it was late at night before an objective. So not rushing but wanted to get as much sleep as possible.

[galibier_numero_un]

Thom, yeah I'm sure that everything was to scale and true (or not true). I'm a professional designer, and have been a professional wrench and manufacture. So in my day to day I have to regularly check scale of the patterns and parts I get back from Asia manufacturing partners it's the first thing I always check (nothing like burning hours of worth of work cause the scale was off to teach you that lesson). I've checked my paper multiple ways, checked the holes I punched, even directly measured the bindings to confirm.

You are right in that I should have practice mounted, but it was late at night before an objective. So not rushing but wanted to get as much sleep as possible.

Well that sucks. I wonder how many shops had to "eat" a bad mounting job because of that.

So as I was writing the above, I pondered my own flaws as I'm working on a CAST mount with inserts - the reason being that I'm slightly overlapping two toe holes and I want a bit better strength. Fingers crossed. First test mount looks good, but I don't trust myself.

Folks think that CNC is fool-proof, but there's ample opportunity for the operator to screw up - even if it's a job he's done hundreds of times. I suspect I'm preaching to the choir.

I have a Martin guitar, which I learned years later had its bridge mis-located by about 1/4". The worst part is that the problem persisted undetected by the factory for nearly three years (in the mid-late 70's). A luthier performed a "transparent" repair (new bridge in the same place, with a repositioned saddle).

One bad batch (ATK) really sucks, but for a company (Martin) to let this go on for 3 years is unforgivable. It's amazing that they kept it under wraps (although they did have a "hidden" warranty for it, which my luthier informed me of when I reported intonation issues).

... Thom

[tupp_]

Hey all - looking at the FR 16s but thinking these could be too high a release value.

Is the toe pin force the same as the 12/14 or is it up there at 16? I am coming off of some Kingpin 13s and Fritchi Tectons and moving to a more dedicated big day setup. I run ~10 din @ ~160lbs without gear.

[Spyderjon]

Hey all - looking at the FR 16s but thinking these could be too high a release value.

Is the toe pin force the same as the 12/14 or is it up there at 16? I am coming off of some Kingpin 13s and Fritchi Tectons and moving to a more dedicated big day setup. I run ~10 din @ ~160lbs without gear.

Same toe tension. If you want a higher/adjustable toe tension then wait for the Raider Evo models in the autumn.

[tupp_]

Thanks Spyderjon - i specifically don't want the tension too high. Is this documented anywhere?

[galibier_numero_un]

Thanks Spyderjon - i specifically don't want the tension too high. Is this documented anywhere?

Are you concerned with clamping force on the toes, or lateral release value?

They're two different things.

... Thom

[Benneke10]

All I can say is that Raider toes definitely don't have enough clamping force to do kick turns unlocked

[galibier_numero_un]

All I can say is that Raider toes definitely don't have enough clamping force to do kick turns unlocked

Wut? You're not locking your toes on the up?

... Thom

[plugboots]

Wut? You're not locking your toes on the up?

... Thom

I was trying to figure this one out as well. Like: Why?

[Benneke10]

Sometimes I skin unlocked in avalanche terrain, and I was just saying that the Raider toe is not noticeably harder to walk out of than any other tech toe in my experience

[rod9301]

I always skin unlocked in my mtn.

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

[plugboots]

Sometimes I skin unlocked in avalanche terrain, and I was just saying that the Raider toe is not noticeably harder to walk out of than any other tech toe in my experience

I agree with this. Noticed no real measurable difference between my Raider 12s and assorted Dynafits. I just raaaaarely go up unlocked.

[galibier_numero_un]

Good points about sketchy terrain, although I wouldn't count on any tech toe to hold onto my boot when unlocked and doing kick turns.

... Thom

[tupp_]

Great points and an interesting discussion.

This is not for skinning unlocked (which I also do in very rare occasions, mostly accidental).

What I am after is essentially not being too locked in by a higher spring tension toe piece on the 16 vs. the 14.

I have years of skiing on other pin bindings, all with retention ranges of 12-14. I like that level of tension and wouldn't want more toe tension in those edge cases where that toe tension affects release. What I do like is the heal retention ranges of the 16 and the fact that it is readily available to me (vs. the 14 which is not right now).

Intuitively, I would have thought the toe would have higher clamping forces on the 16 vs. the 14. It sounds like they are actually identical toes?

[Westcoaster]

I always skin unlocked in my mtn.

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

Mtns have insanely high toe clamping force, like ~250lbf. Not really sure why, but they are made by plum I believe, which also have similarly high measured clamping forces. Dynafit appear to have around 150 lbf across their whole line. Atks test a bit higher, maybe 10% higher than dyna. Theres a table somewhere on wildsnow.

[Benneke10]

Great points and an interesting discussion.

This is not for skinning unlocked (which I also do in very rare occasions, mostly accidental).

What I am after is essentially not being too locked in by a higher spring tension toe piece on the 16 vs. the 14.

I have years of skiing on other pin bindings, all with retention ranges of 12-14. I like that level of tension and wouldn't want more toe tension in those edge cases where that toe tension affects release. What I do like is the heal retention ranges of the 16 and the fact that it is readily available to me (vs. the 14 which is not right now).

Intuitively, I would have thought the toe would have higher clamping forces on the 16 vs. the 14. It sounds like they are actually identical toes?

I share your curiosity here. I was sharing my anecdotal skinning experience because unfortunately that is some of the only data we have available. And skinning retention could be completely different than ski retention. As far as I know all the Raider toes are identical for 2022 but I wouldn't put it past ATK to make some minute changes between them and not make it known. One difference between the 16 toe and 14 toe is the 16 has a 4mm shim built in like the Moment Voyager

[hafjell]

I always skin unlocked in my mtn.

Are you resort skinning or backcountry?

[Wapow]

I bought FR 14s this season. They ski great and work as well as pretty much any other pin bindings I've used (Dynafit and G3). One small issue I've encountered is the lifters tend to flip over from the flat position if I'm "vigourously" moving in the flat position. Happens when the ski flexes or I swing the ski moving over uneven terrain. Happened several times last weekend when doing a long-ish flat approach over refrozen. Anybody have a fix for this?

[Climbers Right]

I bought FR 14s this season. They ski great and work as well as pretty much any other pin bindings I've used (Dynafit and G3). One small issue I've encountered is the lifters tend to flip over from the flat position if I'm "vigourously" moving in the flat position. Happens when the ski flexes or I swing the ski moving over uneven terrain. Happened several times last weekend when doing a long-ish flat approach over refrozen. Anybody have a fix for this?

Are you making sure to push them into the pins rather than just flipping and forgetting? They will sort of nest in there. With the one riser pushed down, the magnet holds the other well enough for some downhill skin tele nonsense. I've noticed it on all ATK non u spring risers

[cydwhit]

I bought FR 14s this season. They ski great and work as well as pretty much any other pin bindings I've used (Dynafit and G3). One small issue I've encountered is the lifters tend to flip over from the flat position if I'm "vigourously" moving in the flat position. Happens when the ski flexes or I swing the ski moving over uneven terrain. Happened several times last weekend when doing a long-ish flat approach over refrozen. Anybody have a fix for this?

Yep! You've gotta push the top side of the high riser between the pins of the heel. It's machined to fit perfectly, and it goes in and out easily with a pole. If you just let them flop, they'll flop in the way and annoy you. But, if you just push that top riser down into there, the other will stick to it via magnets, and you should be good to go.