It's too crowded, no one goes there anymore

[Tips^Up]

WTF is up with lift lines, parking lots, crowded runs, everything getting tracked out. Too many people doing the same things at the same times. I think this is my last season with an Epic Pass. Skiing should be an enjoyable activity, especially pow days. I don't like the person I become when I'm pissed all day at everyone. How do we make the sport not suck again? Why aren't new ski areas applying to open every day, there sure seems like a fuckload of demand?

[grrrmountainman]

WTF is up with lift lines, parking lots, crowded runs, everything getting tracked out. Too many people doing the same things at the same times. I think this is my last season with an Epic Pass. Skiing should be an enjoyable activity, especially pow days. I don't like the person I become when I'm pissed all day at everyone. How do we make the sport not suck again? Why aren't new ski areas applying to open every day, there sure seems like a fuckload of demand?

Do you REALLY think the market as a whole demands more ski areas? Yeah the lines are fuckin ridiculous some days yet most of the time these places are a ghost town. I get it. Fresh snow and your easy going personality becomes more like a woman’s which sucks the fun out of everything. In North America we don’t like lines and we get pissed of at them and the behaviour in them. But dude, gave you tried skiing in Europe? It doesn’t seem like it, but we have a good thing going for the most part. Come to Canada. But not whistler
Because fuck whistler when there are other choices. I don’t think (maybe this is just me being a naive Canadian) that the population supports a lot more ski area development. Ski mid week. It’s a beautiful thing. Can’t? Make it so you can live in a town that allows that.

[Buster Highmen]

WTF is up with lift lines, parking lots, crowded runs, everything getting tracked out. Too many people doing the same things at the same times. I think this is my last season with an Epic Pass. Skiing should be an enjoyable activity, especially pow days. I don't like the person I become when I'm pissed all day at everyone. How do we make the sport not suck again? Why aren't new ski areas applying to open every day, there sure seems like a fuckload of demand?

Ski Bluewood, Anthony Lakes, Turner Mountain, Lost Trail, Discovery Basin, Maverick Mountain, Pebble, Soldier Mountain, Pomerelle, Silverton Mountain, Pajarito.

In the Puget Sound and greater Cascades proximate to urban areas, there sure seems to be markets for new ski areas, but the challenge of dealing with pseudo-environmentalists like the Nature Conservancy and the Sierra Club is a hurdle too high.

As a society, we are not in an age of innovation, nothing new is really being done for infrastructure. Investments into things with indeterminacy have all but stopped in lieu of bolstering a fake and increasingly fragile stock market.

[zion zig zag]

We must grow the sport, lest it die out!
I hear you though, I had the good fortune of many 100+ day seasons at Snowbasin when it was a country club, pre and just post, Olympics. Now when a friend gives me the occasional free ticket it kinda just makes me sad. I know I should just enjoy it for what it is, but I can’t help but feel nostalgic for the “old” days.


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[Buster Highmen]

I hear you though, I had the good fortune of many 50+ day seasons at Crustal when it was a country club, pre and just post, Amazon. Now when my father in law gives me a seasons pass it kinda just makes me sad. I know I should just enjoy it for what it is, but I can’t help but feel nostalgic for the “old” days.

[garyfromterrace]

Come to Canada. Ski mid week. It’s a beautiful thing. Can’t? Make it so you can live in a town that allows that.

Shut your dirty whore mouth JONG. It's way too busy here all season (especially midweek). I hear Chile is good though! Yeah, go to Chile. And also Lofoton, not too busy there I've found.

[zion zig zag]

I hear you though, I had the good fortune of many 50+ day seasons at Crustal when it was a country club, pre and just post, Amazon. Now when my father in law gives me a seasons pass it kinda just makes me sad. I know I should just enjoy it for what it is, but I can’t help but feel nostalgic for the “old” days.

Ha. How did I know you’d make fun of me for that post?

[Buster Highmen]

Ha. How did I know you’d make fun of me for that post?

I kind of wasn't and kind of was as well as making fun of myself. But yeah, SB and all urban skiing sure has changed.

[zion zig zag]

I kind of wasn't and kind of was as well as making fun of myself. But yeah, SB and all urban skiing sure has changed.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the shit out of it with the right people. But it’s tinged with a touch of grey.

[Buster Highmen]

. But it’s tinged with a touch of grey.

Well, I'm more than touched with a tinge of grey too,

[Hott Butt Mud]

Skiing has become the cool adventure sport rad thing to do for all of the college graduates who re-locate to SLC and Denver. How can you show your loved ones back home how your life is awesome?

Go skiing 5 days a year and get some nasty ill sick Instagram stories. The people who all ski 5-10 days per year almost always go at the same time.

Guess what, it was 70F in Denver last week, everyone stayed in the Front Range. Now it's a super gnar sick storm weekend and everyone MUST go skiing!

[123ski]

A few thoughts.

Capacity planning is a dominant issue for most of these resorts, and moving to multi resort pricing has shown that these resorts are prioritizing cash flow predictability over user experience (and maybe even profits).

You see, all hospitality-operations strategies must answer the same questions, which I can dive into later, but the ultimate problem is this:

Demand for services must be met as it arises because it cannot be inventoried.

Demand variability creates alternating periods of idle workers and idle facilities vs customer wait times.

Therefore, management must trade off the cost of idle resources vs the potential cost of customer dissatisfaction due to long wait times and overcrowding.

So the real questions that we should be asking are as follows. Once we know these answers we can begin solving the problem. I believe I know the answers to these and have several solutions, but I’d like to discuss these first:

1) Have the resorts prioritized maximum capacity over customer satisfaction?

2) have the resorts prioritized consistency and predictability of cash flows over customer satisfaction?

3) is customer satisfaction directly correlated with wait times in the ski industry?

4) what else is customer satisfaction highly correlated with?

5) can management control some aspects of supply and demand? If so, which ones?

6) what is the optimal combination of supply and demand-management strategies that provide for maximum capacity at a ski resort, while operating within a specified acceptable level of wait times and crowding for customers?


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[old goat]

If it's too crowded when you are there, you are part of the problem.
If the crowds make you into a person you don't like, yes, you should quit.
As far as resort powder skiing with no lines and stashes that last all day, forget about it. Learn to enjoy other aspects of the sport or quit.

[Tips^Up]

Do you REALLY think the market as a whole demands more ski areas? Yeah the lines are fuckin ridiculous some days yet most of the time these places are a ghost town. I get it. Fresh snow and your easy going personality becomes more like a woman’s which sucks the fun out of everything. In North America we don’t like lines and we get pissed of at them and the behaviour in them. But dude, gave you tried skiing in Europe? It doesn’t seem like it, but we have a good thing going for the most part. Come to Canada. But not whistler
Because fuck whistler when there are other choices. I don’t think (maybe this is just me being a naive Canadian) that the population supports a lot more ski area development. Ski mid week. It’s a beautiful thing. Can’t? Make it so you can live in a town that allows that.

I don't think we need more ice shops in Antarctica, because location is important to business success. I do think urban areas with crowded ass ski resorts could use more competition, like Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, SLC Jackson. I have not skied outside the USA, I'd love to experience Canadian skiing or Europe.

[Buster Highmen]

If it's too crowded when you are there, you are part of the problem.
If the crowds make you into a person you don't like, yes, you should quit.
As far as resort powder skiing with no lines and stashes that last all day, forget about it. Learn to enjoy other aspects of the sport or quit.

That's awfully unimaginative.

I just spent 12 days skiing, mostly pow and some groimers with no liftlines except the day at Snowbasin. There are ways around the crowding issue, we just have to work a little harder and think a little more.

But, for example, relative to Denver with WP, ABasin, Loveland, Copper, Breck lift capacities, I think the Seattle area could support another ski area.

[Tips^Up]

A few thoughts.

Capacity planning is a dominant issue for most of these resorts, and moving to multi resort pricing has shown that these resorts are prioritizing cash flow predictability over user experience (and maybe even profits).

You see, all hospitality-operations strategies must answer the same questions, which I can dive into later, but the ultimate problem is this:

Demand for services must be met as it arises because it cannot be inventoried.

Demand variability creates alternating periods of idle workers and idle facilities vs customer wait times.

Therefore, management must trade off the cost of idle resources vs the potential cost of customer dissatisfaction due to long wait times and overcrowding.

So the real questions that we should be asking are as follows. Once we know these answers we can begin solving the problem. I believe I know the answers to these and have several solutions, but I’d like to discuss these first:

1) Have the resorts prioritized maximum capacity over customer satisfaction?

2) have the resorts prioritized consistency and predictability of cash flows over customer satisfaction?

3) is customer satisfaction directly correlated with wait times in the ski industry?

4) what else is customer satisfaction highly correlated with?

5) can management control some aspects of supply and demand? If so, which ones?

6) what is the optimal combination of supply and demand-management strategies that provide for maximum capacity at a ski resort, while operating within a specified acceptable level of wait times and crowding for customers?


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Thank you for your opinion, Mr. Katz. I hope the weather is lovely in Broomfield today.

[hutash]

Are the powder day lines due to too many skiers over all, or the fact more people can ski powder on modern equipment? I am not convinced Ikon/Epic have increased skier days all that much. It hasn't change the number of days I and most of the people I know ski. The vast majority of my ski days are at Mammoth (with or without Ikon) and touring. I typically get in one or two trips to other hills, same as I did before Ikon. True Ikon makes those trips more affordable, but as Ikon has eased over all costs, resort day tickets have become obscene forcing people to buy Ikon or Epic passes.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Thank you for your opinion, Mr. Katz. I hope the weather is lovely in Broomfield today.

hahaha, he's probably posting from his home in Boulder though.

[Buster Highmen]

After having a bunch of less than satisfactory experiences at destination resorts back in the 90s, we switched over to targeting smaller, less fashionable ski areas and going to Yurp.

While I still have to deal with the Puget Sound shitshow from tax free businesses leveraging all sorts of antiquated infrastructure, I can find a respite from the madness.

[Bunion 2020]

I do think urban areas with crowded ass ski resorts could use more competition, like Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, SLC Jackson.

Jackson is now urban eh?

Hate to break it to you but most of the good terrain for ski areas has been developed unless you plan on displacing other user groups.

Deal with the crowds or as was said above change your habits and ski other places besides the Megas.

Are the powder day lines due to too many skiers over all, or the fact more people can ski powder on modern equipment?

I would guess a combination of the 2. If its not a "good" day most stay home.

[Buster Highmen]

Are the powder day lines due to too many skiers over all, or the fact more people can ski powder on modern equipment? I am not convinced Ikon/Epic have increased skier days all that much. It hasn't change the number of days I and most of the people I know ski. The vast majority of my ski days are at Mammoth (with or without Ikon) and touring. I typically get in one or two trips to other hills, same as I did before Ikon. True Ikon makes those trips more affordable, but as Ikon has eased over all costs, resort day tickets have become obscene forcing people to buy Ikon or Epic passes.

Blame snowboards and fatskis.
I also think that HBM has a point about the type of person that skis now.

[old goat]

That's awfully unimaginative.

I just spent 12 days skiing, mostly pow and some groimers with no liftlines except the day at Snowbasin. There are ways around the crowding issue, we just have to work a little harder and think a little more.

But, for example, relative to Denver with WP, ABasin, Loveland, Copper, Breck lift capacities, I think the Seattle area could support another ski area.

It's easy to ski resort powder without the crowds if you have the time and the money. Most people don't.
(Around here except for KT on a storm weekend or bluebird powder morning the lines aren't too bad on the weekend. The traffic is another issue. The thing that would most enhance the skiing experience would be dramatically better mass transit to the ski areas. It pisses me off the Sierra Watch is fighting the Squaw Village development outright instead of trying to leverage more mass transit dollars out of Alterra.)

[Buster Highmen]

It's easy to ski resort powder without the crowds if you have the time and the money. Most people don't.
(Around here except for KT on a storm weekend or bluebird powder morning the lines aren't too bad on the weekend. The traffic is another issue. The thing that would most enhance the skiing experience would be dramatically better mass transit to the ski areas. It pisses me off the Sierra Watch is fighting the Squaw Village development outright instead of trying to leverage more mass transit dollars out of Alterra.)

You're in Tahoe which is generally awful for crowding.

But the point is that if one wants to ski, the smaller resorts can offer great skiing at costs much less than major destinations like Tahoe. Its just that places like Anthony Lakes or Vars/Risoul make for less impressive social media and water cooler bragging.

[123ski]

Thank you for your opinion, Mr. Katz. I hope the weather is lovely in Broomfield today.

To be clear I’m super opposed to multi resort passes. Was just providing a framework by by which to think through the issues first. Then I’ll explain why multi resort f’s everything up further and my solution to it


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[Buster Highmen]

To be clear I’m super opposed to multi resort passes. Was just providing a framework by by which to think through the issues first. Then I’ll explain why multi resort f’s everything up further and my solution to it

Will there be PowerPoint slides?