Jacket features for resort skiing?

[Treycal]

...with sensible pocket layout and wrist gaiters)the two clear winners were the almost identical Salomon Icestar 3L...

Not a killer deal but the Icestar is on sale at Corbetts.com for $439.

https://www.corbetts.com/2020-salomo...ht-sky-jacket/


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[Micol]

Just an anecdotal data point but worth making: Garments don't have to be abused to lose the dwr, they just have to get well used. Living in the pnw of canada, new jacket dwr's generally don't even last a few months before wetting out in crucial areas if worn daily for ski touring in warmer storm cycles, biking/hiking in pissing rain, etc... Sure you can do everything by the book/best practices: wash with techwash or dawn non perfumated pure dish soap, double, trippple, quadrupppple rinse, dry on hot, touch up with iron, reapply with aftermarket dwr's to get a few more days or weeks of water beading every time...but it never lasts. Pretty much the same problem with every new goretex jacket acquired in the rotation stream of every three years or so over the past 30ish years of buying goretex shells; some better than others, of course. With the new jackets, it's always so much initial hope....and so much commensurate disappointment. It's all the same junk. In the old days, i'd get a better short term bump using the rat cancer making Scotchguard spray but then of course they changed the forumla to make it non cancer causing and it lost its potency. Buddy who lives in Canada's rainiest city with an average of 100+ inches of precip per year, p"Rinse" Rupert, commutes to work via bike every day, hikes a lot after work and days off. We have a 30 year ongoing dialogue about the dwr issue. He has replaced various brands of goretex jackets every coupla years and has similar observations. Can't get better real world testing.

2 mos loss would be abused by washing. i am well aware of wear loss. seems like maybe this is prevalent to the gore-tex you speak of...we only have one gore fabric product, and its made from gore that is not commercially available from a govt supplier to military. i have not worn it enough to comment on its dwr, I wear it alot, but not what i would consider alot which is what i spoke of above ( i think you might have read over this and missed it) ....neoshell worn : " i use for sled accessed skiing and all the bs associated with being near sleds, oil, skis, skins, column saws, shovels, Rotella T4 and water still beads up on them" this is a quite different than wearing casually to work and some field hiking...i think my example would be more inline with how professionals use garments in the course of a workday in the outdoors, not that what i was doing was work tho....

[swissiphic]

2 mos loss would be abused by washing. i am well aware of wear loss. seems like maybe this is prevalent to the gore-tex you speak of...we only have one gore fabric product, and its made from gore that is not commercially available from a govt supplier to military. i have not worn it enough to comment on its dwr, I wear it alot, but not what i would consider alot which is what i spoke of above ( i think you might have read over this and missed it) ....neoshell worn : " i use for sled accessed skiing and all the bs associated with being near sleds, oil, skis, skins, column saws, shovels, Rotella T4 and water still beads up on them" this is a quite different than wearing casually to work and some field hiking...i think my example would be more inline with how professionals use garments in the course of a workday in the outdoors, not that what i was doing was work tho....

Good point, i was speaking mostly about goretex based garments, didn't mean to paint with a broader brush.

As for washing/dwr loss after 2 months; no washing during first 2 or shortly after 2 months, that's with a new jacket just being worn/used regularly.

As for polartech neoshell; I went back to goretex after a test run of this jacket (it was admittedly a cheap one, older vintage, can't recall what year and not familiar with neoshell so don't know if there are different versions of it and of course, don't to paint with another broad brush about neoshell; different companies, different face fabrics, backers, etc...). In any case, the rapid dwr degradation was the worst of any jackets i'd previously purchased, it didn't breathe worth a damn, felt more clammy on the skin and in cold windy conditions, didn't block the gales like goretex.

But to set context here, i'm using all this gear in extreme conditions. Lots of ski touring in rain/sleet/wet puking snow, transitions from rain to snow to icing as one ascends from sea level to altitude, some bushwhacking, etc.... Even when stuff is brand spankin' out of the box new, by mid day it all feels like yer wearing a plastic garbage bag on those worst case scenario days.

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5034-2...htcheck-Jacket

[margotron]

Now that I've had a jacket with wrist gaiters I dont think I could ever go back. I cant stand gauntlet over the cuff gloves and with the gaiters you basically never have to worry about snow in you gloves or pulling sleeves over gloves ever again.

weird. i knew people like you existed, i just had never met one #unicorn

[Micol]

Good point, i was speaking mostly about goretex based garments, didn't mean to paint with a broader brush.

As for washing/dwr loss after 2 months; no washing during first 2 or shortly after 2 months, that's with a new jacket just being worn/used regularly.

As for polartech neoshell; I went back to goretex after a test run of this jacket (it was admittedly a cheap one, older vintage, can't recall what year and not familiar with neoshell so don't know if there are different versions of it and of course, don't to paint with another broad brush about neoshell; different companies, different face fabrics, backers, etc...). In any case, the rapid dwr degradation was the worst of any jackets i'd previously purchased, it didn't breathe worth a damn, felt more clammy on the skin and in cold windy conditions, didn't block the gales like goretex.

But to set context here, i'm using all this gear in extreme conditions. Lots of ski touring in rain/sleet/wet puking snow, transitions from rain to snow to icing as one ascends from sea level to altitude, some bushwhacking, etc.... Even when stuff is brand spankin' out of the box new, by mid day it all feels like yer wearing a plastic garbage bag on those worst case scenario days.

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5034-2...htcheck-Jacket

sounds like mid layers are possibly your problem and not a 3L wpb jacket. The activity engaged has nothing to do with breathability** imo. You have to be blocking the outerlayer performance with your layering system, or you are using a brand jacket sewn from neoshell that has a liner sewn in or lots of pockets which can act as obstructions and perform like blocking layers. There is no more breathable waterproof fabric that I have experienced in decades than straight up neoshell with tricot backing....

and again to address degradation of dwr from wear, i stand by my sled skiing activities ...nothing seems to abuse a jacket more than this and that should include dealing and bending working around and with the mag chlor road grime on the trailer and truck...

** assuming all activity scenarios we are discussing are aerobic in nature

ps and on another note...glove/sleeve gaiters obstruct a path of airflow that you need to properly vent yourself at times on demand...u r better off without and going with an over gauntlet style glove if gapping is an issue...however, an underglove can still be worn without gapping if you have super long sleeves...not to mention some of the gaiters ive seen on the trade ins you boys have sent us are disgusting...not sure what you are handling out there....lol

[Micol]

ok swissphic you just deleted and i didnt reply with quote...so you're gone...but u wanted to discuss layering...i say another thread elsewhere..since this is jacket features...however since fabrics are part of jackets i will post my response to you with some interesting pics

hell , realistically on jackets the type of tricot can matter for breathability....loose warp weft , brushed, etc

"I dont want to plague up this thread with drift...start a new one or find exisitng and i will comment....but couple things...1) layering is subjective, 2) you obviously sweat alot (Hyperhidrosis) and may be compounded by unique epidermus or squamous cells...im no med on to the layers 3) poly knits can be made to breath 4) jacket linings are poly woven tight, not so much breathing, but all about denier and the warp and weft of the weave "

good breathing knits with some sweat absorbtion and docking for evaporation (1st up to light, 2nd&3rd
my 60X microscope)




bad breathing ..Woven tight (60X OR puffy lining, other brand Goretex jackets powderskirt ....think tarp or tent footprint

[swissiphic]

ok swissphic you just deleted and i didnt reply with quote...so you're gone...

Not gone...just went skiing. Didn't wanna drift thread further, sent what I deleted to ya in a p.m.

[kootenayskier]

Not a killer deal but the Icestar is on sale at Corbetts.com for $439.

https://www.corbetts.com/2020-salomo...ht-sky-jacket/


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Thanks for the heads up. They’re currently at 30% off or CAN$357 at the Last Hunt, I’m just waiting till they go to 50% off.

[kootenayskier]

weird. i knew people like you existed, i just had never met one #unicorn

Wrist gaiter on the inside, then FTP SX gloves, and my shell jacket with Velcro over the top. Locked down for a day of ducking and weaving through the trees.

[Treycal]

Thanks for the heads up. They’re currently at 30% off or CAN$357 at the Last Hunt, I’m just waiting till they go to 50% off.

You’re close. Last Hunt is also offering an additional 15% off orders over $300, so it’s now $303 before tax.


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[ExPowderSnob]

hey @micol, What jacket fabric would you recommend for a PNW skier who is terribly exothermic... Needs lots of waterproofness ,and breathability...

[Micol]

hey @micol, What jacket fabric would you recommend for a PNW skier who is terribly exothermic... Needs lots of waterproofness ,and breathability...

you pm'd me , i responded...

[phatty]

Are there any decent jackets still made that have the forward facing pit zips? They are such money on my OR White Room, but they stopped making that jacket a few years ago.

[swissiphic]

Are there any decent jackets still made that have the forward facing pit zips? They are such money on my OR White Room, but they stopped making that jacket a few years ago.

+1...had the White Room as well, just wish the vent extended more towards the armpit and down a bit.

Upgraded to the Hemisphere's jacket, a bit more refined than the White Room, but the waist to almost armpit vent is just a hair too short for dumping heat fast. I think the existing vent would work well with an under the forearm to tricep arm vent for a nice horizontal dipping to vertical air flow heat dumpage program. Might install a few myself and see how that works out.

Is there a jacket venting design thread? Quick search revealed nada.

If not, there should be. I gotta lot of ideas.

[Micol]

I gotta lot of ideas.

zippers cause manufacturers a lot of grief due to working seam tape around them....the designers all bout the aesthetics love to use ykk aquaguards for zippers which are terrible for trying to operate in the field without shedding gloves which makes them useless to 1st responders e.g. your SARS, patrols, high elevation emt, etc... We make garments for some of those operators and our feedback comes from them...so maybe inbounds or day tourers dont mind shedding gloves and getting their digits exposed to operate a bunch of zippers, but the pros we work with say no/no to that.

why not just use a jacket with a good 2 way front zip and regular pit zips...there are some hudge drawbacks to forward facing vent systems...most of the garment brands that use those are doing it because they are easier and cheaper to install in a garment during production than under arm....

ive collected several hundred vintage and modern ski and mountaineering garments...the front vents have been tried....why reinvent a vintage wheel? im not saying dont, if a new tech brings a different outcome...but.....if u use an aquaguard on a front vent so that wind does not penetrate, someone is going to have to shed some gloves to operate it, if you put a vislon facing front your going to need a flap or your going to get some constant leakage and the flap negates the purpose of having a vent because it will block any venting..so, maybe these are some things you havnt considered yet...you're going to have to be working with hardshells too, cause linings and such are not going to work well with vents has been my experience including interfering with pocket bag construction and of course these fancy pancy jackets with pouches and google lens holders...all interfere with front vents....

ps ,...why u euros messing with OR , u guys have like shit tons of your own brands that are pretty specialized and good at what they do..im surprised unless you r us expatriot or whatever thats called...how bout bergans, mammuts, rabs , millets, jack wolfskins, and the likes.?

[Name Redacted]

Pretty sure MJ was a level 8+ skier. Probably moonwalked all the way to the road. Dude had skillz. But clearly knew nothin about jackets.

Mid 90's TNF Mountain jacket was the prototype. Everything since has been hand jobs and finger bangs. No one has made a better jacket since. Throw a Nuptse or Denali under it if you are cold. What the fuck is wrong with people these days?

[Micol]

Pretty sure MJ was a level 8+ skier. Probably moonwalked all the way to the road. Dude had skillz. But clearly knew nothin about jackets.

Mid 90's TNF Mountain jacket was the prototype. Everything since has been hand jobs and finger bangs. No one has made a better jacket since. Throw a Nuptse or Denali under it if you are cold. What the fuck is wrong with people these days?

i rmember having a yellow one and then later forest green , denali too, which someone in jackson bought from me in gear swap...forgot who, still have the yellow, sold the green in a yard sale in leadville in like 2008...

[swissiphic]

zippers cause manufacturers a lot of grief due to working seam tape around them....the designers all bout the aesthetics love to use ykk aquaguards for zippers which are terrible for trying to operate in the field without shedding gloves which makes them useless to 1st responders e.g. your SARS, patrols, high elevation emt, etc... We make garments for some of those operators and our feedback comes from them...so maybe inbounds or day tourers dont mind shedding gloves and getting their digits exposed to operate a bunch of zippers, but the pros we work with say no/no to that.

why not just use a jacket with a good 2 way front zip and regular pit zips...there are some hudge drawbacks to forward facing vent systems...most of the garment brands that use those are doing it because they are easier and cheaper to install in a garment during production than under arm....

ive collected several hundred vintage and modern ski and mountaineering garments...the front vents have been tried....why reinvent a vintage wheel? im not saying dont, if a new tech brings a different outcome...but.....if u use an aquaguard on a front vent so that wind does not penetrate, someone is going to have to shed some gloves to operate it, if you put a vislon facing front your going to need a flap or your going to get some constant leakage and the flap negates the purpose of having a vent because it will block any venting..so, maybe these are some things you havnt considered yet...you're going to have to be working with hardshells too, cause linings and such are not going to work well with vents has been my experience including interfering with pocket bag construction and of course these fancy pancy jackets with pouches and google lens holders...all interfere with front vents....

ps ,...why u euros messing with OR , u guys have like shit tons of your own brands that are pretty specialized and good at what they do..im surprised unless you r us expatriot or whatever thats called...how bout bergans, mammuts, rabs , millets, jack wolfskins, and the likes.?

Noted, for future reference.

Got no time at present, workin' on the skinless skinning system and tail extender tweaking. Feels pretty awesome to leave the heavy hides in the car and tiptoe through the tulips.

Jacket mod stuff will be a summer project.

[conan the librarian]

I must say good hand panties are a must for me. Only in the warmest spring skiing I would use a jacket without them.

I can remove my mitts without worrying about my hands rewarming or redoing any velcro.

My current jacket is so "high-tech" it doesn't have pit zips. That was a huge mistake and I'll chose them on my next jacket. I have to layer very carefully so I'm not dying of heat on the technical double blacks and then freezing on the lifts.

Sounds shite mate.

[Shorty_J]

Noted, for future reference.

Got no time at present, workin' on the skinless skinning system and tail extender tweaking. Feels pretty awesome to leave the heavy hides in the car and tiptoe through the tulips.

Jacket mod stuff will be a summer project.

I have to admit I've been I intrigued by your tip extenders... but now that you have those and tail extenders, shouldn't you just buy longer skis?

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[swissiphic]

I have to admit I've been I intrigued by your tip extenders... but now that you have those and tail extenders, shouldn't you just buy longer skis?

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lol.

Tip Xtenderz were fabricated for the now retired Armada JJ's which needed a little bit of help in the front. I'm presently at work at a heli op in B.C. and have to mod the tip xtenderz for guides to test on some Black Crow Noctas and G3 Sender 112's. It's deep enough that both models need a bit more tip float.

Tail Xtenders are for the flat tailed/tip rockered K2 Darksides.... Mount point is pretty far back, so, just not enough tail support for uphilling in some specific snow conditions:
- fresh deep bottomless moist or dry pow.
- punchy, deep ski pen upside down snow.
- breakable rain crust over isothermal mush where pole plants go to ground.

Total ski length is 'just right' for downhilling, but it's nice having that extra tail support on the ups for much more efficient, evenly weighted steps, so the tips don't end up pointing more to the sky and remain more parallel with the snow surface. I have a backup pair of Darksides in the next length up; the basic issues of uphilling weight balance feels the same with the similar drawbacks as the shorter ones. For dh-ing, the tradeoff of less lightning quick pivotiness in techy terrain and intuitive pop in the trees relegates them to alpine terrain crushers; they feel kinda planky in other stuff...I don't ski much alpine these days.

Unintended consequence: It just so happens that 3cms of tail extension feelz pretty good on the down too, so, now the xtenderz are just left on full time. With the extra trip rocker I bent in the skis combined with the subtle spooning of the lateral base edge areas, certainly don't need more tip with these skis. They feel intuitive for turn initiation, non hooky, and pretty much dive proof.

[jono]

@MiCol: the forward facing vent down the center on your jackets works pretty well at flowing air. Is the key with Vislon having a little tension available to pull the zipper apart and uncover the flap?

I also have a cycling jacket that uses dual forward facing and works really well (aquaguard on that can be operated gloved because close jacket fit holds the zipper tight enough to allow for a hard pull, then keeps the 'setting' after).

I love those for biking: a ready supply of forced air, adjustable to temp and output. Makes a super thin shell really useful for a wide range of temps (but of course it might need more regular adjustments for lift riding than on fat bikes).

[Micol]

@MiCol: the forward facing vent down the center on your jackets works pretty well at flowing air. Is the key with Vislon having a little tension available to pull the zipper apart and uncover the flap?

on this one with glove or non glove, left hand apply fingers to jacket. with right zip up with pull

[Shorty_J]

on this one with glove or non glove, left hand apply fingers to jacket. with right zip up with pull

I personally find that difficult with some pit zips (particularly with a jacket with a baggy fit), but then again relatively big in the chest but I have t-rex arms.

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[Micol]

I personally find that difficult with some pit zips (particularly with a jacket with a baggy fit), but then again relatively big in the chest but I have t-rex arms.

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that picture is of the front 2 way zipper on our jacket. The top pull/slider is already in the up position....this shows how to get leverage to zip the bottom slider up to vent the jacket from the bottom...

not pictured
pit zips on our jackets can be one handed as long as the front zipper is zipped up closed. Sometimes if standing you may have to hold the bottom hem of the jacket on the side of the pit (reach across to zipper with opposite hand) to get the proper leverage, trial and error will prevail...