EPIC pass now available at Hunta'

[AdironRider]

Or there is an only partially exploited and growing market that Vail is missing the boat on because of misshapen attitudes and skewed outlooks...

We are in a world where one 10K bike or 5K can do it all mtb-wise. An average Mtb is probably $3250. Average alpine skis+bindings probably $1250. Yes some bike enthusiasts have 8 bikes, but most have 1-3 bikes. The average ski owner has more pairs of skis than the average mtber has mountain bikes.

The real take away is that mountain bikers have and spend money, at least as much as skiers do. Build nice trails, all levels, all types, both flow and tech, green through double black, and maintain it, and you'll get these moneyed recreationists to come buy lift tickets, buy condo nights, eat at restaurants and bars, and shop in in your shops. As I said, there are many ski hills that have bike parks that meet this criteria... they just aren't Vail typically Resort mountains except Whistler, and maybe Crested Butte... Northstar? So thats 2 or 3 out of 27 resorts...

Mtb Tourism is a thing. Vail can't even get a Summer Epic pass together. Their business model is buy a pass at your local hill that is good at their high end resort so they can get you to travel and spend money. Do they have a pass that is good at both Whistler and their US bike parks? Nope...

Look man, when even all the other stuff is bought and paid for by skiers and the resorts still can't be bothered to put in a couple bike trails (which are cheap as fuck in comparison), your whole argument kinda falls apart. The numbers just aren't there and plenty of places have tried already once. It wasn't just a lack of flow trails.

Also, being a curious cat, I can't find anything that remotely comes close to backing up your numbers. You got a link? I'd be happy to change my tune about bikers bringing the dough, but the evidence for that is scant.

[Danno]

If lift served mt biking was a dying sport that wasn't worth the investment, someone forgot to tell Winter Park. They have invested enormously in their bike park over the last several years, and I bet they'd tell you that it was a great investment for the mountain and the community.

[AdironRider]

If lift served mt biking was a dying sport that wasn't worth the investment, someone forgot to tell Winter Park. They have invested enormously in their bike park over the last several years, and I bet they'd tell you that it was a great investment for the mountain and the community.

So has Jackson yet no one goes there and rides all the free stuff just down the road. Even then, the numbers are tiny compared to skiers.

The bike industry as a whole is fine, but I think this resort oriented level of downhill biking that requires a massive capital outlay by the participant, a high pain tolerance, and a decent level of cohones so to speak and you have yourself a limited niche which most ski resort CEO's see and realize. A green rated downhill trail requires more physical capability than a green level ski trail.

[jackstraw]

If lift served mt biking was a dying sport that wasn't worth the investment, someone forgot to tell Winter Park. They have invested enormously in their bike park over the last several years, and I bet they'd tell you that it was a great investment for the mountain and the community.

These guys aren't even a ski area. Well, they're a defunct ski area.
https://www.highlandmountain.com/

[summit]

Look man, when even all the other stuff is bought and paid for by skiers and the resorts still can't be bothered to put in a couple bike trails (which are cheap as fuck in comparison), your whole argument kinda falls apart. The numbers just aren't there and plenty of places have tried already once. It wasn't just a lack of flow trails.

Also, being a curious cat, I can't find anything that remotely comes close to backing up your numbers. You got a link? I'd be happy to change my tune about bikers bringing the dough, but the evidence for that is scant both on paper and in the real world.

Your ipso facto reasoning that there isn't a market for mtb parks because Vail isn't doing it is the dumbest logic I've heard all day. Have you dealt with Vail Resorts? I don't mean to be rude, but for fucks sakes!

Vail did such a bad job managing their Keystone bike park, which at one point was the second largest US bike park after Mammoth, that Winter Park was able to build Trestle Bike Park from scratch until it outclassed Keystone in size and many times more rider days despite being an equal drive for Frangers! And people eat and drink at the mountain, rent the $150/day bikes, and buy the $45/day lift tickets. What did Winter Park do different? They built all levels of trail with a focus on flow trails, brought in experienced trail builders, they maintained their trails, marketed hard, and treated mountain biking like a prime attraction instead of a "also-can-do." ... kinda like Whistler!

Vail's myopia with bikes is pretty crazy. Continuing the Keystone example, they decided they needed to run the Gondola in the summer for tourists and they didn't want foot passengers and wedding guests sharing the same cabin as muddy bikers. So instead of buying Gondola bike trays like Steamboat, Whistler, and a bunch of other gondola using bike parks, they have a few gondolas that can accept a single bike on an internal rack, and they run the quad chairlift with bike trays AT THE SAME TIME (at keystone, the gondola and chairlift are right next to each other, loading and unloading from the same place). That is $10K/day to run an extra lift, complete waste, and they've been doing it year after year. But they say they have no money to build trail. Please tell me about the infinite financial genius of Vail Resorts as it relates to mountain bike ops. I can give you 10 more examples of similar stupidity. Again, I've never worked for the empire, so I'm giving you the customer's view, not the salty employee view.

Yea I see where you found $328. They are talking dedicated 2 mtb vacations (not a franger driving up to Vail)... with an average travel distance of 566 miles. You think are traveling over 1000mi rountrip and spending $328? I think they made a typo, unless you think they are driving Prius, eating PB&J, and car camping. But go on thinking that bikers are cheapskates.

[dunfree]

I also chuckle at the casual brush off that a bike that is 5x more expensive than even the most blingy bc ski setup is somehow no big deal. That kinda dough for a bike is unsustainable even at 3-5k.

whether or not its sustainable, its a decent portion of the household recreational budget. budget = gear + participation costs + travel. the more $ gear eats up the less that can be spent on everything else.

that link posts a pretty convincing portrait of mtbers being cheap. given that campground is the #1 place to stay and burger the #1 thing to eat; not to mention few guides, rentals or lessons. not that there aren't rich mtbers. if it's a great niche... serve it.

[AdironRider]

I'm not talking just about Vail, I'm talking about ski resorts overall. I just don't see the money being there at the same level as skiers, its been a generation, if it was there, there would be a whole lot more examples of it outside of a few select places.

If we were talking about communities like East Burke or Fruita that have made a nice little community out of mtb that is approachable and fun, I'm right there with ya (outside of the cost of entry for a bike - which is retarded right now cost wise and will have to come down if they want to grow more), but I just don't see it. We all would have already. Even in those instances like Fruita, it is not bringing the money you claim it to be.

[Benny Profane]

Your ipso facto reasoning that there isn't a market for mtb parks because Vail isn't doing it is the dumbest logic I've heard all day. Have you dealt with Vail Resorts? I don't mean to be rude, but for fucks sakes!

Vail did such a bad job managing their Keystone bike park, which at one point was the second largest US bike park after Mammoth, that Winter Park was able to build Trestle Bike Park from scratch until it outclassed Keystone in size and many times more rider days despite being an equal drive for Frangers! And people eat and drink at the mountain, rent the $150/day bikes, and buy the $45/day lift tickets. What did Winter Park do different? They built all levels of trail with a focus on flow trails, brought in experienced trail builders, they maintained their trails, marketed hard, and treated mountain biking like a prime attraction instead of a "also-can-do." ... kinda like Whistler!

Vail's myopia with bikes is pretty crazy. Continuing the Keystone example, they decided they needed to run the Gondola in the summer for tourists and they didn't want foot passengers and wedding guests sharing the same cabin as muddy bikers. So instead of buying Gondola bike trays like Steamboat, Whistler, and a bunch of other gondola using bike parks, they have a few gondolas that can accept a single bike on an internal rack, and they run the quad chairlift with bike trays AT THE SAME TIME (at keystone, the gondola and chairlift are right next to each other, loading and unloading from the same place). That is $10K/day to run an extra lift, complete waste, and they've been doing it year after year. But they say they have no money to build trail. Please tell me about the infinite financial genius of Vail Resorts as it relates to mountain bike ops. I can give you 10 more examples of similar stupidity. Again, I've never worked for the empire, so I'm giving you the customer's view, not the salty employee view.

Yea I see where you found $328. They are talking dedicated 2 mtb vacations (not a franger driving up to Vail)... with an average travel distance of 566 miles. You think are traveling over 1000mi rountrip and spending $328? I think they made a typo, unless you think they are driving Prius, eating PB&J, and car camping. But go on thinking that bikers are cheapskates.

Are they making a profit off this market?

[summit]

Are they making a profit off this market?

Whsitler runs 1 gondola and 3 lifts, 2 of which are just for bikes, is building a dozen new trails this year, and makes insane amounts of money off of their bikers.

Sure seems like Winter Park is as well. They pay trail builders, trail maintainers, bike patrollers, run 3-4 lifts, 2 of which are just for bikes, and they have lift lines even with 3 lifts for bikers, even during the week, because of all the bikers, and have lots of tourists renting their $150/day bikes, paying for bike lessons, etc. They market hard and appear to be making plenty o money because otherwise why would they treat biking like a primary attraction?

Keystone runs their Gondola all day for weddings and foot traffic and keeps patrollers around for medical anyway. That would be done without a bike park. Yet they also run another lift all day for bikes unnecessarily. Still, their rental shop often rents out all their bikes and they sometimes have lines part of the day on weekends. They market biking a little bit between summer festival marketing and reminding people that winter is coming. So they must be making some money overall, but they light $10k on fire most days running an unnecessary chairlift and there is a lot of unrealized potential.

[S_jenks]

Got news for you, skiing is a young game too. Only 23% of skier visits are over the age of 50. Recreational lift served skiing is over 80 years old in the US while the first dh full suspension mountain bike is only 25 years old.

Over 20 million bikes sold in US/yr so that includes your huffys and kids bike plus road. 5 million are mountain bikes.

Lifts mean old people and flat states don't have to pedal

Ebikes mean old people are riding trails

Flow trails mean that non rad people like to ride lifts and rail berms on groomed dirt without the crash deterrent of tech.

Average household income
mtn biker 108k
Skier 100k

So yea, mtn bikers aren't about to fiscally implode over 10k bikes any more than a skier is over 2k DPS with dynafit.

Sure there does not need to be as many bike resorts as ski resorts.

Yes, there is enough market value for well built, well maintained, lift served biking for there to be more resorts than just Whistler. And there already are several out there! But they are not Vail Resort mountains (besides Whistler).

Gotta say though that 23 percent over visits being over 50 is a significant chunk of the total skier visits. When you take into account that the average skier over 50 years old is wealthier (due to longevity, capital accumulation, etc) that 23% is likely spending at much higher levels on resort-backed services (such as lodging, rentals, eating out, etc.). In many ways the over 50 bloc, when combined with families, are likely the target market for the Epic Pass.

Not saying that the mountain bike market isn't an area of growth that Epic-owned resorts shouldn't consider- to the contrary they should be keeping close note of it. But as far as Epic is concerned, mountain biking has a long way to go at this point in order to catch up to skiing.

[Benny Profane]

Whsitler runs 1 gondola and 3 lifts, 2 of which are just for bikes, is building a dozen new trails this year, and makes insane amounts of money off of their bikers.

Sure seems like Winter Park is as well. They pay trail builders, trail maintainers, bike patrollers, run 3-4 lifts, 2 of which are just for bikes, and they have lift lines even with 3 lifts for bikers, even during the week, because of all the bikers, and have lots of tourists renting their $150/day bikes, paying for bike lessons, etc. They market hard and appear to be making plenty o money because otherwise why would they treat biking like a primary attraction?

Keystone runs their Gondola all day for weddings and foot traffic and keeps patrollers around for medical anyway. That would be done without a bike park. Yet they also run another lift all day for bikes unnecessarily. Still, their rental shop often rents out all their bikes and they sometimes have lines part of the day on weekends. They market biking a little bit between summer festival marketing and reminding people that winter is coming. So they must be making some money overall, but they light $10k on fire most days running an unnecessary chairlift and there is a lot of unrealized potential.

Ok, there's revenue, but, profit?

[summit]

Ok, there's revenue, but, profit?

I've never worked for a ski resort, much less their financial dept... don't think those numbers are public. Winter Park was open for 106 days of biking last year, those are numbers I can get. Whistler for 150 bike days (they open the bottom for biking while the top is still open for skiing). Keystone 86 bike days (151 for skiing).

[Benny Profane]

Well, at least Keystone is good for something.

[Jonny Snow]

Lift served flow trails are pretty mellow and can attract normal athletic people of all ages and abilities. They aren't particularly dangerous until you crash off the trail with too much speed. The jury is still out on the long term sustainability of the current lift served biking renaissance.

[gnarbro365]

Fuck building DH mountain bike trails...Vail should buy an airline. Really corner the ski-cation market. Direct flights from NYC/Chicago to Denver/SLC/Reno/Seattle.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[sb]

Snowshoe has a very active lift served bike scene. Of course they are under the Ikon overlords.

They also have XC and motorized activities and even had an Ebike race earlier this year.

[Bunion 2020]

It is not just the ticket sales. Factor in the F&B and lodging.

Big Sky as an example used to be a ghost town during the summer. The started a program called Base Camp, built some good bike trails and zip lines and climbing walls and the place is busy as hell in the summer.

[m2711c]

how many people does sugarbush get at that fancy schmancy trent jones golf course each summer? if you can make money off mountain golf, you should be able to make money off of mountain bikes....... gotta be cheaper than maintaining 18 hole of picky grass.

[raisingarizona13]

Is mountain biking going to make as much money as skiing at ski resorts? Probably not but for the major players like Whistler, Winter Park etc. that are the primary destinations for nearby population hubs they do actually make money from it. This may be why Vail has chosen not to invest into a bike park, WP already has that niche cornered. Why compete with them when your another extra hour drive (or whatever the distance is) away from your target market?

Really good flow trails can be fun for the whole family and they aren't any more dangerous than skiing. Those trails ain't cheap to build though. I would add that the sport has evolved a bit over the years. DH isn't as much of a thing as the enduro is now. I'd like to visit a resort that has lift served biking but has lift accessed rides that are long and connect valleys and peaks and include some pedaling. Parks are fun but I prefer the long ride experience.

One thing that for certain is that with the affects of global warming becoming more of a thing resorts are trying to figure out how to generate income throughout all four seasons because skiing and the snow it needs to be viable is becoming less and less reliable.

[sb]

Got a buddy that builds trail. $100 per foot is his rate but that may have gone up as it was from a couple years ago.

[MMMSKI]

Hunter and Vail deserve each other.

I cry for Wildcat though.

I agree entirely

[smartyiak]

I'm with the e-bike + flowy green/mild-blue mtb trails will make $$$.

In the "spend money to make money" vein, they also have to make enough trails to make it worthwhile (a'la Whistler). I'm not gonna pay $$$$ for 10 trails when there's 15 free ones right next door. However, if I can spend all day with big ascents (or lift access if you're into that) and HUDGE downhills...then I'll pay some $$$$.

Market the e-bike as a sightseeing "look at the birds" type deal going up. Open restaurant/Starbucks at the top and a few fun, flowy options to make their way down without dying...that take an hour, I bet people would be more into it. Remind them that riding bikes is fun...not just a bunch a Rampaging bro-brahs from Red Bull commercials.

[AlexC]

Revelstoke is opening a bike trail this Friday and they're promoting it as e-bike friendly. It's a 10 mile flow trail that descends 5,620 feet, but you have to pedal uphill 4 miles from the top of the gondola to the top of the mountain to get to it. Most mountain bikers won't blink at that, but they're also renting e-bikes for tourists. I'm sure other resorts are watching to see how this strategy works.

[smartyiak]

Revelstoke is opening a bike trail this Friday and they're promoting it as e-bike friendly. It's a 10 mile flow trail that descends 5,620 feet, but you have to pedal uphill 4 miles from the top of the gondola to the top of the mountain to get to it. Most mountain bikers won't blink at that, but they're also renting e-bikes for tourists. I'm sure other resorts are watching to see how this strategy works.

Me and Revie...great minds and all.

[FLS]

Hunter and Vail deserve each other...

I agree entirely

Curious. How so?