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Thread: Tech binding toe release values

  1. #1
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    Tech binding toe release values

    After ACL/MCL/PCL repair surgery in 2017, I'm skiing more cautiously than in years past and have turned down the DIN on my alpine binders.

    I'm creating a touring setup and would like to do the same re:lower DIN.

    Given my injuries I'm leaning toward lateral heel release to protect my ligaments over lateral toe release to protect my tib/fib.

    What I'd like to find out is if there is a list of what the toe release (approximate) DIN equivalent is on all the tech bindings that are out there... Does this exist somewhere?

    I ask because I've read that some tech bindings have a much higher toe retention than classic dynafits, which a lot of people love, but I never had a problem with dyanfit (comfort/vertical/radical) toes and would like to aim for that kind of release (at the most) or less.

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  2. #2
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    If a store near you has a vermont calibration machine, they can test binding for you?

    I would think that the kingpin, would have some of the best heel release, but that is NOT a tested idea and I'm just guessing due to the bigger heel.

    the shift would have more toe release options?

    Leelu might have better answers? PM him


  3. #3
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    Here you go: https://www.wildsnow.com/18803/compa...er-g3-dynafit/

    Keep in mind that this data only represents a part of the system that determines when tech binding releases. The testing that mntlion recommends with your boots will give you a much better idea whether or not a pair of bindings will release reliably. There are so many combinations of tech bindings and tech fittings out there...

  4. #4
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    I've always used the same DIN (like) setting on my rads & verts as the DIN settings on my alpine binding,

    any time I use a vibram soled AT boot in a frame AT binding (FR+, Baron) I turn the heel up 1 din

    with a tech binding (verts & rads ) I turn the vert release up 1


    this ^^ seems to prevent pre-ejectulation, reliable release , I don't use Tech bindings that are not independently fully adjustable for horizontal and vert values

    I seem to remember reading that G3 tests/calibrates the marks on each one of their bindings ?

    you are probably a good candidate for SHIFT
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  5. #5
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    Tech binding toe release values

    FWIW, next year’s ATK Raider 12 binding has adjustable jaw strength with a set screw. Though, their jaw strength has historically been pretty high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    Here you go: https://www.wildsnow.com/18803/compa...er-g3-dynafit/

    Keep in mind that this data only represents a part of the system that determines when tech binding releases. The testing that mntlion recommends with your boots will give you a much better idea whether or not a pair of bindings will release reliably. There are so many combinations of tech bindings and tech fittings out there...
    Awesome... That is exactly what I wanted... Thanks!

    I recognize that real world testing is more accurate, but I'm not prepared to buy multiple sets of bindings just to test them all with my boots... Not in the budget.

    From that table it looks like a kingpin 10 or radical 2.0 would be money for me.

    It's also probably not possible since I don't know where to buy just the kingpin heels, but a rad 2.0 toe with kingpin heel sounds like an interesting frankenbinding.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I've always used the same DIN (like) setting on my rads & verts as the DIN settings on my alpine binding,

    any time I use a vibram soled AT boot in a frame AT binding (FR+, Baron) I turn the heel up 1 din

    with a tech binding (verts & rads ) I turn the vert release up 1


    this ^^ seems to prevent pre-ejectulation, reliable release , I don't use Tech bindings that are not independently fully adjustable for horizontal and vert values

    I seem to remember reading that G3 tests/calibrates the marks on each one of their bindings ?

    you are probably a good candidate for SHIFT
    I'm interested specifically in the toe release values since they aren't adjustable on classic tech bindings.

    And the shift has vailriable toe release but no lateral heel release... Which I'm leaning towards to protect my new ligaments.

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  8. #8
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    I get that ^^ but how much if at all do Tech bindings do any releasing action at the toe ?

    OR once the heel comes out of the pins do the toes just follow ?

    I can't say I have ever noticed the boot releasing at the pins

    I'm not that heavy and i never lock the toes out

    I've often wondered ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I get that ^^ but how much if at all do Tech bindings do any releasing action at the toe ?
    None.
    (Well, except for Vipec, Tectron, TR2.)
    So the answer to the OP's q is that the toe release value on Tech bindings (with the above three exceptions) is the same as the heel release value on alpine downhill bindings (with the exceptions of the Knee binding and the Howell Vaporware binding), i.e., totally meaningless in isolation.
    The toe pincer retention does play an important role with:
    • Potentially preventing prelease.
    • Potentially allowing a smoother release.
    • Affecting the lateral heel release value.
    • The ability to tour with the toe levers in ski mode.

    I have measured various toe unit release values in isolation using a VT torque tester, and the results are interesting, but of practical importance only for mixing & matching race bindings and also just trying to figure out how some race bindings work.
    (For example, the Dynafit LTR 1.0 heel had a lateral release value somewhere in the range of mini grom bindings, but the toe has such high retention that the heel pretty much contributes nothing to lateral retention.)
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  10. #10
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    How can the release strength at the toe have no effect on releasing from the toe?

    At the very least it should have some effect on being way back seat.

    I like to pretend that never happens to me but it's just not true. And that's a potential stressor on my weakened knee.

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  11. #11
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    heel release = better for protecting ligaments? Is there any data to back this? I think so far, it‘s really only a theory!?

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    There's definitely data on it if you go looking around.
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  13. #13
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    are you actually touring?
    if so get a tecton and be done with it
    if you're skiing at a resort just get an alpine binding and be done with it
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
    fire

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomh79 View Post
    heel release = better for protecting ligaments? Is there any data to back this? I think so far, it‘s really only a theory!?
    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    There's definitely data on it if you go looking around.
    If you mean epidemiological data, that would be limited to the Knee Binding, since it's the only alpine downhill binding (except for ancient plate bindings from the70s) with lateral release at the heel. And I don't think they've provided any data other than claims that nobody has ever suffered the kind of soft tissue injury to the knee that the binding is designed to prevent (which is something like ~90% of all soft tissue inuries to the knee IIRC).

    Otherwise, yes, it's still essentially a theory (unless you believe that the Knee Binding is a total success story).
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    How can the release strength at the toe have no effect on releasing from the toe?

    At the very least it should have some effect on being way back seat.

    I like to pretend that never happens to me but it's just not true. And that's a potential stressor on my weakened knee.

    Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk
    Because a typical Tech binding (i.e., not Vipec, Tecton, TR2) releases from the toe only once the boot has released from the heel.
    And then the retention force of the toe only (with the lever in ski mode, not tour mode) is pretty trivial for any model.

    I do think your reasoning makes sense on going with a typical Tech binding so as to place the higher priority on protecting your knee ligaments (as opposed to the higher priority you would implicitly place on protecting against bone fractures by getting one of the atypical designs that release laterally at the toe like a typical alpine downhill binding).
    And I do think you should pay attention to the release/retention characteristics of the particular model.
    Then have it really torque tested, and be on the low side with your settings.
    But choosing a binding based on the toe pincer retention in isolation, I don't think that has any value for your situation.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    How can the release strength at the toe have no effect on releasing from the toe?

    At the very least it should have some effect on being way back seat.
    So for shits and giggles I clicked my Vulcan into a ski with a vert binding that was clamped solidly into my shop mate

    I started wrenching & banging on the vulcan sideways at toe and heel using 2x4 scrap for a drift.

    I don't get any movement at the toe but hammer on the heel and that is where all the movement occurs ... try it yourself

    I think the toe piece springs are just there to keep the arms/pins closed and the binding only releases when the heel comes sideways out of the rear pins which lets the toe come out of the front pins IN A TRAD TECH BINDING

    maybe you want a tech bindings that releases at the toe
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I think the springs are just there to keep the arms/pins closed and the binding only releases when the heel comes sideways out of the pins
    Yes.
    (And when the boot heel releases forward out of the heel pins, the boot toe will also release out of the binding toe.)
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  18. #18
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    This:
    https://howell-ski-bindings.myshopif...pages/about-us
    ... seems to grow longer whenever I read it every year or so, but has the stat (with caveats) that the kind of injury that can be prevented by lateral heel release is ~75% out of all knee injuries), and this thought on a real data-based study:

    Full validation must come from evidence-based research involving an epidemiologically-correct, on-slope, prospective intervention study (presently being organized). The planned prospective intervention study will be the first of its kind in the ski industry, though this kind of validation is mandatory in the pharmaceutical industry — and will take ~5-years and cost ~$4-million to perform, in-full. Meanwhile, the biomechanical proof (above) is plausible and compelling.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

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    This is interesting to me... Because I'm pretty sure I've read numerous report of people feeling better about the firmer hold of some of the modern tech bindings... But maybe that's just the lack of pre-release as suggested above?

    However, if that's really the case, why is it advised to most average users not to ski with the toe locked out? If this increased force doesn't effect release, why is it suggested that's dangerous?

    I feel like maybe that's a stupid question? Well I have a newborn at home so that's the excuse I'm going to use for my reduced cognition.



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  20. #20
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    people feel a lot of unsubstantiated things that hopefully make them feel better, or worse ?

    Most people I see using Tech bindings don't clear the smoo from under the toe springs by clicking the toe arms open/ closed and they don't clear the pinholes by moving the ski on the snow before locking in so the slots in the pins can auger out the boot pin holes

    If they skip the ^^ ritual or don't do it EVERYTIME the ski is more likely to fall off unless one locks the toes

    since we are talking about it, how many clicks you pull up on the lever does nothing for toe piece retention, they are either locked or not

    edit : for more shits & giggles I locked out the toe lever and pulled sideways to see how much force was needed to release the boot and I couldn't get the boot to release at any number of clicks

    might be ok in a no fall zone but not everytime you are pointing a ski down hill ... which I see all the time

    I seem to remember reading about a skier hanging from a locked dynafit toepiece in a crevasse
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorty_J View Post
    This is interesting to me... Because I'm pretty sure I've read numerous report of people feeling better about the firmer hold of some of the modern tech bindings... But maybe that's just the lack of pre-release as suggested above?

    However, if that's really the case, why is it advised to most average users not to ski with the toe locked out? If this increased force doesn't effect release, why is it suggested that's dangerous?

    I feel like maybe that's a stupid question? Well I have a newborn at home so that's the excuse I'm going to use for my reduced cognition.
    That's a good excuse, and congrats on the little one!
    And yes, to some extent, stronger toe pincer retention can avoid prelease, although other aspects of design can play a role too.
    If the toe lever is pulled all the way up into tour mode, the binding has almost no chance of lateral release.
    My point was that toe pincer retention does affect lateral release, but only in conjunction with the heel unit characteristics. (Well, unless toe pincer retention is so high that the heel characteristics become moot, as is the case with the toe lever pulled all the way up.)
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    since we are talking about it, how many clicks you pull up on the lever does nothing for toe piece retention, they are either locked or not
    Although a certain prominent blogger repeatedly claims that, and although on some designs that is true, on a classic Dynafit toe piece (whether the officially named "Classic" model or the IV, Tech, Speed, Comfort, Vertical), the add'l clicks actually do make a difference, as confirmed by some limited testing I conducted -- limited b/c I started to "score" the toe sockets a bit, and everything was obviously under a lot of stress, so decided to quit after some preliminary results.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  23. #23
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    Watching the toe piece while pulling the boot sideways I can see the lever move down so that lever has to be able to move for the binding to release

    I would agree the clicks make a very little difference as to how tight the arms pinched the boot toe ( 1 click vs completely locked ) It looked like Maybe the binding would still release but its not something i would take to the bank and yeah i don't want to fuck up this almost new Vert with hardly any days on it

    a tech binding with a bunch of use might be all over the map on this ^^ kind of thing
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    That's a good excuse, and congrats on the little one!
    And yes, to some extent, stronger toe pincer retention can avoid prelease, although other aspects of design can play a role too.
    If the toe lever is pulled all the way up into tour mode, the binding has almost no chance of lateral release.
    My point was that toe pincer retention does affect lateral release, but only in conjunction with the heel unit characteristics. (Well, unless toe pincer retention is so high that the heel characteristics become moot, as is the case with the toe lever pulled all the way up.)
    I'm picking up what you're putting down... I'm ready your mail.

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  25. #25
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    Tech binding toe release values

    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I don't get any movement at the toe but hammer on the heel and that is where all the movement occurs ... try it yourself

    I think the toe piece springs are just there to keep the arms/pins closed and the binding only releases when the heel comes sideways out of the rear pins which lets the toe come out of the front pins IN A TRAD TECH BINDING
    Not true. YMMV based on the boots and toe jaw clamping force, but I’ve done exactly that (released at the toe with heel pins still engaged) both in testing and while skiing (scary fall ensued). One was a Dynafit SSL 1.0, can’t remember what the other was - might have been the same binding.

    You can see it in my testing video in the Vipec review at blisterreview.com - slamming a ski sideways opens the toe of the binding - I still had enough stickiness from the lateral force applied and heel pin engagement for the ski to not fall off, but if I was skiing it in rough snow it likely would have. Note the lack of engagement on the left boot toe socket.

    https://blisterreview.com/gear-revie...iamir-vipec-12

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