The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[lazyasian]

I'm on Hagan Core 12s and love 'em. They're rebranded (and distributed in America) ATK Raiders. Expensive, but they ski as well as any tech binding out there while weighing less than any non-u spring binding with a brake (other than maybe the Zed which seems to have had some first year issues).

[ccl]

Another vote for the Atomic Backland binding. Simple, reliable, light. I skied them all last year, as did my wife and two of my ski partners. Probably a combined total of 300 ski days between the four of us last season and no issues.

You can also leave out the rear plastic shim and the delta becomes something close to 6mm. I did that with both pairs I skied last year.

I’m nearly 200 pounds without gear and ski the “man” spring. Granted I’m no free rider but never released - and never felt like I should have.

[timmaio]

Oizo is 4/10 lateral but fixed 8 vertical and they don't make other "U" pieces for other values.
ATK SRL Release is lighter, adjustable laterally and they make different "U" (4/6/8/10). But only one riser.
If you want to go a bit heavier the new ATK Crest looks nice (10 DIN, 280g INCLUDING stoppers + heel elasticity, 30mm track). But 1st year product.
Or the ATK Haute Route, same weight as the Oazo including the pate, adjustable laterally and vertically (DIN 10).

Not sure about US availability though.

Haute Route is BD Helio 200

Expensive, but you get adjustable lateral and vertical release

[Norseman]

SSL 2.0 (can even go to skimo.co and get SSL heels + Speed Rad toe if you want a burlier toe -- some reports of SSL 2.0 toes cracking near the screws)

Can you point to a specific report of the 2.0 toes cracking?

My anecdote that has me paying closer attention:

Recently bought a used SSL 1.0 toe to keep in the pack as a spare. Immediately discovered that three of four screw holes had cracks across the countersink.





I demanded a refund and sent that piece of shit back.

Upon examining my green 2.0 toes, the new design has more material surrounding the screw, presumably to address this failure. I don't have photos ready to support this, but I'd guess maybe 1mm more material radially.

So I'm keen to see whether the 2.0 actually had this same problem, or if the rumor mill is conflating the two designs.

[auvgeek]

Can you point to a specific report of the 2.0 toes cracking?

It's in the SSL 2.0 thread. Dude, you even commented on it.

Crack through the metal by a screw hole, i.e. halfway to this problem:


Edit with big red arrows:

Attachment 231355

The other toe has a crack in the same location (forward side of the right rear screw hole) that hasn't made it all the way down to the base of the binding. Don't see any other cracks.

Toe #2

Attachment 231373

Toe #1, from a more obvious angle

Attachment 231374

Ok. Good to be reminded of that potential failure mode.

[Norseman]

Haha, you're right! I had forgotten. Thanks.

It still looks like less material than what I recall seeing on mine... but obviously my mind isn't worth trusting. I'll have to look closely again. I still wonder if there was a design revision.

[hafjell]

*obviously it's not a strict requirement, but almost everyone I know prefers toes shimmed

Why? Shims in general or shims with Speed Turns?

[mall walker]

^ guessing with speed rad / turns as the ramp is 15.5 or 16mm, which is pretty noticeable (all my bindings are with 2.5mm of flat)

[auvgeek]

It still looks like less material than what I recall seeing on mine... but obviously my mind isn't worth trusting. I'll have to look closely again. I still wonder if there was a design revision.

Yeah, please post up in the SSL 2.0 thread if you really think there's been a revision. I'd love to know personally.

Why? Shims in general or shims with Speed Turns?

The old skool tech binders have like 15-17 mm heel-toe delta, and most people I ski with prefer much less. Alpine binders usually have over a cm less heel toe delta. OTOH, I think some touring boots have reduced boot board angle (internal ramp) to combat the excessive heel toe delta of tech binders. So if you shim a binder with 5-8 mm delta to be flat, that might be too little ramp.

As always, YMMV.

[Norseman]

https://skimo.co/pin-heights

[auvgeek]

ATK SRL Release is lighter, adjustable laterally and they make different "U" (4/6/8/10). But only one riser.

Wait, just saw this... I thought the SLR release has 3 riser heights? As per the website:

"The Heel Flap with raiser provides 3 walking modes: FLAT MODE, + 37 mm and + 50 mm."

Do you know something different?

[hafjell]

^ guessing with speed rad / turns as the ramp is 15.5 or 16mm, which is pretty noticeable (all my bindings are with 2.5mm of flat)

The old skool tech binders have like 15-17 mm heel-toe delta, and most people I ski with prefer much less. Alpine binders usually have over a cm less heel toe delta. OTOH, I think some touring boots have reduced boot board angle (internal ramp) to combat the excessive heel toe delta of tech binders. So if you shim a binder with 5-8 mm delta to be flat, that might be too little ramp.

As always, YMMV.

https://skimo.co/pin-heights

Thanks. So I like the way a high delta skis (feels like I don't have to work to get forward, thus it's very fast and easy) but I skied a really neutral rig last spring, and my legs felt great at the end of the day (skied horribly). Maybe that's the obvious tradeoff with ramp?

[Norseman]

Ski geo plays in, too, with some being more sensitive to where your CG is positioned.

[stuntmanbo]

Wait, just saw this... I thought the SLR release has 3 riser heights? As per the website:

"The Heel Flap with raiser provides 3 walking modes: FLAT MODE, + 37 mm and + 50 mm."

Do you know something different?

Physically, there is only one riser (metal part), but 3 modes :
- Rotate the heel and do not use the metal part, that's the flat mode.
- Do not rotate the heel, just push the riser, that's the +37mm, the riser will be just on top of the pins.
- Rotate the heel, use the riser, since the metal part is asymmetric, you'll get +50mm

The Raider 12 has 2 metal parts so 5 different modes in total :
Heel rotated : Flat, one riser used, both riser used
Heel not rotated : one riser used, both riser used

Don't know if it's clear ?

[auvgeek]

Physically, there is only one riser (metal part), but 3 modes :
- Rotate the heel and do not use the metal part, that's the flat mode.
- Do not rotate the heel, just push the riser, that's the +37mm, the riser will be just on top of the pins.
- Rotate the heel, use the riser, since the metal part is asymmetric, you'll get +50mm

The Raider 12 has 2 metal parts so 5 different modes in total :
Heel rotated : Flat, one riser used, both riser used
Heel not rotated : one riser used, both riser used

Don't know if it's clear ?

Yeah, that's what I thought. Same as the Trofeo, correct?

[stuntmanbo]

Yep same as the trofeo.

[GeezerSteve]

Ski geo plays in, too, with some being more sensitive to where your CG is positioned.

Also, the delta numbers you posted are from the ski deck. Many (all of my) skis are thinner (on vertical axis) at the heel than at the toe. If you want to sync up all your skis, the better way to measure delta is from the ski base, which will usually result in lower delta numbers than those posted on skimo or Wildsnow. All my touring skis are 2-3mm thinner at the heel than toe and all have Turn or Turn 2.0 bindings. I shim the toes with 1/4" (6.35mm) HDPE stock. The combo results in ramp delta measured from ski base at around 7-8mm on all my touring skis, which works fine for me. YMMV.

To further confuse things: The same ramp delta will result in more ramp angle for a shorter boot, less ramp angle for a longer boot. Also, internal boot ramp angle varies from brand to brand and sometimes model to model.

[hafjell]

Also, the delta numbers you posted are from the ski deck. Many (all of my) skis are thinner (on vertical axis) at the heel than at the toe. If you want to sync up all your skis, the better way to measure delta is from the ski base, which will usually result in lower delta numbers than those posted on skimo or Wildsnow. All my touring skis are 2-3mm thinner at the heel than toe and all have Turn or Turn 2.0 bindings. I shim the toes with 1/4" (6.35mm) HDPE stock. The combo results in ramp delta measured from ski base at around 7-8mm on all my touring skis, which works fine for me. YMMV.

To further confuse things: The same ramp delta will result in more ramp angle for a shorter boot, less ramp angle for a longer boot. Also, internal boot ramp angle varies from brand to brand and sometimes model to model.

Interesting. I'll measure tonight. Wonder if the difference will be noticeable with a tape measure or if I'd need calipers.
Also interesting about the difference between stack height (delta) and the ramp angles. I guess the one blessing in having Clydesdale feet is the distance from toe to heel mitigates the ramp angle.

[LightRanger]

I hadn't looked up Tecton ramp since I received mine. 10mm. I hadn't looked them up because I hadn't given them a second thought.

Coincidentally, that's a similar angle to my old Verticals shimmed with a DynaDuke toe (should be ~9mm after shimming). Using the same 27.5 Scarpa Maestrale RS. I hated the ramp angle of the unshimmed Verticals using the Maestrales.

[summit]

ATK Crest 280 bindings
I measured this at 286g for a half pair including 102mm brakes, 311g including screws and crampon attachment (removable 7g).



Made of Aluminum and Steel
Fully and independently adjustable lateral and vertical retention settings DIN 5-10 (no u-spring!)
4mm gap + 5mm forward travel (Elastic Response System)
20mm of BSL adjustment
Precision bomber construction
Flat + 2 heel elevator settings

Nothing else has the combination of forward travel, underfoot brakes, and infinite/independent release adjustment for its weight range.

They are basically inbetween a BD Helio 200 (aka ATK Haute Route 2.0) and the Hagan Core 12 (aka ATK Raider 12). They should offer the downhill performance of a Core 12 (at DIN 10) at a few grams less weight than the Hagan Ride 10 (aka ATK RT 2.0). Vs the Ride/RT, the Crest is slightly lighter while gaining the smoothness/retention of 4mm "elastic" forward travel and has underboot brakes for better power transfer while sacrificing the touring mode retention adjust and 10mm of BSL adjustment (30mm vs 20mm).

Crest 280 are new this year. Hagan Mountaineering is happy to import these for you otherwise you must order direct from Europe shop that ships transatlantic.

These were exactly what I wanted for my 99mm underfoot patterned bases from Voile (Hyper V6 BC) which are soft and have camber, as I need the pin gap 4mm to float for decambering in touring plus 4mm more of forward travel for skiing and dampness. I didn't think the Marker Alpinist would have sufficed for flex on this soft cambered ski and the Zed would have added notable weight, so my next choice would have been the Hagan Core 12 without a doubt, particularly if I wanted DIN 12 and some extra length adjustability + more riser settings.

[plugboots]

Just mentioning this, but one of the really cool features of the ATK Rader/Hagen Core is the way the front brakes work so well.

[summit]

Just mentioning this, but one of the really cool features of the ATK Rader/Hagen Core is the way the front brakes work so well.

It is pretty cool. However, underboot brakes can help with power transfer

[plugboots]

It is pretty cool. However, underboot brakes can help with power transfer

True, but they do have the "freeride spacer" for that same spot to give that solid feel. I didn't order it because it screws into the ski, (I thought it clamped on the binding somehow.) Now that I have a gazillion days on them, I'm not sure how much difference they'd make, as they feel so much more solid then my Dynafits.

[Lindahl]

1) I haven’t seen anyone other than 1 (random) person claim improved power transfer from brakes or a freeride spacer. I’d hold off on tooting that horn right now - its a bit premature. Its a lot of speculation at this point. The theory makes a bit sense, but it hasn’t been vetted.

2) I’ve skied a lot of bindings with forward travel (what some of you are erroneously calling forward pressure), and can’t say that it does anything with respect to ‘smoothness’ in how a binding feels in rough snow (for example, I felt that the ION is one of the harshest bindings). Anyone that says otherwise I’d take that opinion with a grain of salt until you try it yourself. It DOES help with retention however.

3) The brakes with adjustable baseplate on the ATK Crest are available as an aftermarket piece, weigh (supposedly) 80 grams each. They work on the entire family of ATK/Helio/Hagan bindings, which is pretty cool.

https://www.atkbindings.com/en/prodo...i-brake-80-gr/

[GeezerSteve]

I guess the one blessing in having Clydesdale feet is the distance from toe to heel mitigates the ramp angle.

bigger the feet, bigger the meat