Ski boot industry going away from custom-moldable shells?

[Gaperious Basterd]

One of the skiing magazines showed up today so I opened to the boot section, and from skimming it, it seems that custom-moldable shells may not be a trend anymore? At the same time, it seems custom stock liners are a thing.

If all that is true, is the best thing now to get a boot that requires zero shell work, and then theoretically the moldable cork/waxes/etc will redistribute correctly to fill the voids, and then you have a good-performing boot? (I once read something along the lines of someone getting/having a jumbo boot, and then getting a ZipFit liner (which even for their stated purpose among models are way too voluminous) and having decent performance).

It seems a lot of the boot companies are having multi-material constructions, with many of the areas traditionally needing old-school "punching/stretching" now having plastics so soft they may not hold a stretch very long.... which is why I'm wondering if the "ideal" thing is to get a boot where zero areas would need shell work?


Seems Fischer's vacuum program is phasing out in popularity, Head and Nordica's shell thing seems to be gone, as well as Salomon's (if not "gone," at least no longer a focused trend).

[XavierD]

Salmon, Atomic (and maybe head) boots are still designed to be thrown in the ovan. The Fischer Vacuum fit is being phased out because they skied like shit, was overpriced, and didn’t really work as advertised. Tecnica has a heat moldavle rear cuff on their women’s all mountain boots, and Nordica’s infrared story is still a thing and a good tool.

K2 is telling folks to put their new shells in the oven.

Atomic and Salomon no longer make a big deal about it because it’s now old news, well known, and not a huge marketing push. It’s time for new marketing story lines, and additional product development. It’s also no longer a unique story, and more is required to set you apart, with weight being one of the more popular categories.

[mntlion]

what he said:

R&D guys: any boot is heat moldable,
marketing guys: we need a new tagline.

molding is done with heat and pressure to the shell, you need both, Its just a plastic: Heat it +stretch it + cool it = its a new shape

instructions:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...rs-and-shells)

for new K2 boots
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...V-boot-molding

[gregL]

More and more companies are supplying ovens to their best shops (all the same German oven in different colors) and saying to heat mold their shells. Not all of these manufacturers are actually changing the formula of the plastic to make it change shape and stay there at lower temperatures (~235 F. for these ovens). As mtnlion says, you can cook any shell and it will result in a general relaxation of the fit.

[CascadeLuke]

Salmon, Atomic (and maybe head) boots are still designed to be thrown in the ovan. The Fischer Vacuum fit is being phased out because they skied like shit, was overpriced, and didn’t really work as advertised. Tecnica has a heat moldavle rear cuff on their women’s all mountain boots, and Nordica’s infrared story is still a thing and a good tool.

K2 is telling folks to put their new shells in the oven.

Atomic and Salomon no longer make a big deal about it because it’s now old news, well known, and not a huge marketing push. It’s time for new marketing story lines, and additional product development. It’s also no longer a unique story, and more is required to set you apart, with weight being one of the more popular categories.

Could you offer up a few pure alpine lower weight boot options to check out in the 130 class? Narrow-med last, LV leaning.

[Norseman]

Could you offer up a few pure alpine lower weight boot options to check out in the 130 class? Narrow-med last, LV leaning.

And I'd like a ham sandwich with avocado mayo and romaine on wheat, plz

[CascadeLuke]

Were you accepted as moderator yet? [emoji16]

Was looking hard at Hawx and wanted some pro opinion without leading the question around what I’m liking

[XavierD]

K2 Recon 130 LV
Hawx Ultra 130
Nordica Pro Machine 130 ( lighter but not crazy light)
Dalbello DRS 130 or whatever it is
Lange XT Freetour Pro (140)

[CascadeLuke]

K2 Recon 130 LV
Hawx Ultra 130
Nordica Pro Machine 130 (not that light)
Dalbello DRS 130 of whatever it is
Lange XT Freetour Pro (140)

Thank you!

[XavierD]

The XT Freetour isn’t a pure alpine boot but it skis as well or better than many other light Alpine boots.

[Jonny Snow]

"Heat Moldable Shells" have always been a marketing gimmick.

[Gaperious Basterd]

Yeah I agree that the Fischer Vacuum had many problems (which I've bitched about over the years here, LOL).

I never had an issue with the performance (quite the opposite; for me personally it was game-changing), but to get the fit right took two years, multiple fittings, multiple bootfitters (to be fair it didn't need to but people learn as they go I guess). But anyway, I think the biggest problem (and a bootfitter told me this) is that the plastic doesn't retain its shape long-term.

I'm gonna be thinking more about Solomon/Atomic boots (though I've tried and will not attempt cooking those or any shells or liners at home anymore), and I suppose Nordica and K2 as well.

One random point about Fischer's Vacu-plast material is that--if hot enough--it did DEFORM. On an early-season trip to CO, a second pair of white 110 Vacuums (LOL, which I think I sold to a poster in this thread and then he didn't like them either) were too tight in a couple of places... anyway, I saw the guys at Surefoot and explained I needed a lot more room. They punched out several areas for me, and there were visible bulges in the plastic.

I have to say... that is the only time I've had any shell spot-work done where things actually happened as planned. I know that competent bootfitters can do that with almost any plastic, but just sayin...

Anyway, about the stock-liner heat-molding, it sounds interesting. I bet it will help a lot of skiers have a better out-of-store fit, as well (possibly) not pack out, etc.

[PNB]

Anyway, about the stock-liner heat-molding, it sounds interesting. I bet it will help a lot of skiers have a better out-of-store fit, as well (possibly) not pack out, etc.

Why should be a heat-molded liner less prone to pack out any further compared to a liner that adapted itself to the foot over days of use ?

[XavierD]

All liners pack out, some more than others. Doesn’t really matter if you hear them or not. Heating the (any) liner relaxes the material and helps it adapt to the skier’s foot. In the case of a high density foam (intuition) this becomes a crucial process for a successful fit (unless you’re rog). In the case of many high performance stock liners which have various densities of foam it is a highly recommended step. In most liners sold (think $499 and below MAP) it helps relax the initial tension of the liner and initially adapt around the skier’s foot. In all these cases the liner will still pack out more to its natural limit over time skied. Heat molding a liner will not significantly reduce its lifetime (80-120 days on skis, generally) either.

[Muggydude]

"Heat Moldable Shells" have always been a marketing gimmick.

Really don’t agree with this or the comments about plastic not holding a shape after being heated and stretched. Just not how thermoplastics work...

The fischer vacuum boots may have kind of sucked, but the idea behind them was pretty good imo. I stuck my Salomon x pros in the oven and then molded with the vacuum machine. First boot I’ve ever had that didn’t leave me in moderate to severe pain during/after skiing, and the fit is like a glove and heel hold is still exceptional 3 years later. Last season my first couple days I couldn’t figure out why my feet were in pain again- came to realize I had switched from a thin to medium thick sock. Switched back and they were perfect again, so not much packing out after 40-50 days on those Salomon liners

And the plastic definitely stretched, I have something like a 106mm last in a 25.5 size

Been debating trying to pick up another pair and having them molded before the vacuum machines disappear, but I’ve been holding out for Dalbello to have a boot that will fit me. Not sure if they krypton ax will stretch enough, though they claim their shells are heat molded now too

[swissiphic]

Really don’t agree with this or the comments about plastic not holding a shape after being heated and stretched. Just not how thermoplastics work...

The fischer vacuum boots may have kind of sucked, but the idea behind them was pretty good imo. I stuck my Salomon x pros in the oven and then molded with the vacuum machine. First boot I’ve ever had that didn’t leave me in moderate to severe pain during/after skiing, and the fit is like a glove and heel hold is still exceptional 3 years later. Last season my first couple days I couldn’t figure out why my feet were in pain again- came to realize I had switched from a thin to medium thick sock. Switched back and they were perfect again, so not much packing out after 40-50 days on those Salomon liners

And the plastic definitely stretched, I have something like a 106mm last in a 25.5 size

Been debating trying to pick up another pair and having them molded before the vacuum machines disappear, but I’ve been holding out for Dalbello to have a boot that will fit me. Not sure if they krypton ax will stretch enough, though they claim their shells are heat molded now too

IMO/IME, a perfectly shaped/formed/punched shell holds the foot just fine even after the liner totally packs out to waffer thinness. I'm kinda convinced that some kind of custom carbon fiber shell with independently adjustable lateral and forward flex mechansims and fully replaceable moving parts/buckles/rivets/outsoles etc... based on a foot/lower leg 3d scan with a discrete heating system for a liner could basically be a lifetime ski boot... Minor alterations to shell shape through heat oven/punching if foot changes shape after a decade or two. Huck the Intuition style liner in the washing machine a few times a season to keep the new car smell. Done.

On that note; anyone have any intel on the progress of the DPS ski boot program? Kinda thought it had something to do with 3D scan of foot/lower leg shell tech.