Scarpa Alien punching

[WincentY]

Hi!
Has anyone tried punching Scarpa Alien shells? What technique have you used? Aliens are made of polyamide and I do not have any experience with this material.
I'm not sure if using heat gun wouldn't be too risky...

[gregL]

Hi!
Has anyone tried punching Scarpa Alien shells? What technique have you used? Aliens are made of polyamide and I do not have any experience with this material.
I'm not sure if using heat gun wouldn't be too risky...

I've punched a few.

I used my regular heat gun, but VERY carefully (same applies to F1 or even Maestrale/RS shells, they are super sensitive to heat). Get close to the plastic so you only heat the spot that you intend to punch, but only for 4-5 seconds, then take it away. Repeat. It will take a few cycles.

Feel the shell on the inside, when you can't hold you finger there for a full second, it's ready. Punch with less pressure than you would with a regular boot, the stuff molds like putty. For a minor punch, you could even do it with gloved fingers (this is a good technique if the top of the toebox deflects, which is common for 1st/5th metatarsal punches) - spot heat the edge and push it back with your hands.

Polyamide is just a fancy word to describe a class of plastics that includes nylon, Grilamid, Pebax, etc. - don't worry, they all punch but some are easier than others.

[PNB]

If I'm allowed to split hairs, polyamide would be the polymer's chemical name and Nylon, Pebax, Grilamid are fancy names created by companies.

Besides these trivialities, thanks a lot from my side for your explanation.
It's a pleasure to hear the word of a tradesman.

[gregL]

. . . my regular heat gun . . .

The gun we use in our shops is the 500-750 F. Eddy Pro:

http://www.eddyproducts.com/ItemDetail.aspx?itemId=35

[timmaio]

I'm looking to take a punch out of a pair of Alien 1.0, right foot is a pretty small and pointy punch, left covers a much larger area. Has anyone had success? I've heard it doesn't have the memory that PU has.

[gregL]

I'm looking to take a punch out of a pair of Alien 1.0, right foot is a pretty small and pointy punch, left covers a much larger area. Has anyone had success? I've heard it doesn't have the memory that PU has.

This is for more length? The current Scarpa boots, including the Alien 1.0 seem to hold a punch fine. I think that rumor harks back to the few years Scarpa used Pebax in the Maestrale/Gea boots and they needed more heat and/or to be left on the punch overnight. The new Scarpa plastics seem to punch easily and stay there.

There is a huge range in "memory" among different PU's (or different Grilamids for that matter); you just have to experiment to figure it out.

[El Chupacabra]

Scrolling through the "new posts" and saw "alien punching" and thought of this:

[Jonathan S.]

Memory has definitely been fine on these heel punches:
https://photos.google.com/u/0/share/...FvTUw4aFdPUTZR
Also had some sixth toe punches.

[timmaio]

The punches were done for width(I just bought them used). On the right scaffo it is just for 6th toe, on the left it is much broader, to create width along 3-4 inches. I have narrow feet, and they feel loose with the punches, so I want to have the plastic go back to a more narrow last.

The vintage seems to be about 2-3 seasons ago, but I can't be sure. There is no date of manufacture I can see, but there are definite differences from my wife's which she bought new in the 2014/15 season. The main difference I can see is the 'flexible' carbon closure around the shin. On the '14/15 vintage it is slick and black on front and back, on the unknown it is white on the back, has a soft, gummy texture and there is an additional plastic cord guide which is absent from the 14/15. Also the rear tech fitting has slight differences. On the 14/15 it is held with a torx screw, while on the unknown it is held with a pozi screw.

Does anyone have an older pair of Aliens they could check to identify the vintage of my used pair?
(this is the same as my pair)


Cheers

This is for more length? The current Scarpa boots, including the Alien 1.0 seem to hold a punch fine. I think that rumor harks back to the few years Scarpa used Pebax in the Maestrale/Gea boots and they needed more heat and/or to be left on the punch overnight. The new Scarpa plastics seem to punch easily and stay there.

There is a huge range in "memory" among different PU's (or different Grilamids for that matter); you just have to experiment to figure it out.

[gregL]

Got it. Sorry, timmaio, I haven't tried to retract a punch on an Alien yet. I suppose you could gently heat the area(s) and put pressure on them with the edge of a table or something and see how it goes.

[gregL]

I should elaborate.

Every plastic is different. There are plenty of older PU and PE plastics (also Pebax) that will retract on their own over a period of several weeks to several months; these may need to be re-punched annually. There are plenty of plastics that will allow you to spot heat an old punch and just let it sit there and they will retract (usually not all the way, but 30-50% will disappear). There are boots that can be put in the convection oven for 10-12 minutes (the ones you see in shops) and old punches will retract (again, not all the way back to original shape).

I have tried to retract met head punches in new Maestrale/Gea RS boots (currently Grilamid rather than a non-proprietary polyamide) by spot heating and pushing on them from the outside, and they are pretty resistant to change. YMMV with the Alien.

[Jonathan S.]

Tim, my boots were purchased directly from Scarpa in April 2013.
They were already different from the original version since mine had the sock-like liner, unlike the original that had a very thin overlap liner.
My shell is like yours with the white material and the torx for the heel interface. No additional plastic guide though for the cord.
My punches haven't changed even a mm.

[timmaio]

Thanks Greg and Jonathan. If I end up trying to undo the punches I'll update with my results. As it is I'll likely try using a thicker liner(sytron) for the first month of ski season and see where that takes me

[WincentY]

Thanks a lot gregL.
Normally I wear size 30, however I purchased 1.0 in 29. The overall fit is just amazing, probably best boot fit I've ever had, the only issue is that the boots are a bit too small in lenght. So I want to punch like 4-5mm of extra space for big toes.

[Jonathan S.]

[...]Normally I wear size 30, however I purchased 1.0 in 29. The overall fit is just amazing, probably best boot fit I've ever had, the only issue is that the boots are a bit too small in lenght. So I want to punch like 4-5mm of extra space for big toes.

Getting a half-mondo size increase in length out of stretching the toe box sure seems risky for throwing off the binding interface alignment.
When my replacement liners ended up losing that much (replacement generation looked identical, but probably ~2mm thicker foam, so my toes were pushed forward that much, with that much less room in the tox box to begin with), my boot guy was nervous about stretching, so instead I shaved down some (and eventually all) of the liner foam (from the outside) in the toe box.
And when I mounted up a pair of Alien "0.0" boots that had been punched like you're contemplating, one of the boots was definitely askew, although fortunately the heel unit didn't seem to be preloaded even if the alignment with the heel pins was off by a bit.

[gregL]

IMO a skilled bootfitter should be able to get 4-5mm for the big toe without affecting insert alignment. Be very careful to shield the toe lug from heat when heating the boot (I use 2mm Bontex cut in a curve to match the boot), and have a proven way to punch the area effectively. I would suggest not using a Superfit/Blademaster hydraulic expander with the Alien or any thin-soled light touring boot.

WincentY, are you doing this yourself, or do you have a bootfitter you trust to do the job?

[WincentY]

I was planning to do this by myself, there is no one in my neighborhood who I would trust with this.
How would you recommend to punch it?

[gregL]

PM me with a real email address and I will send you some photos. IMO, this is not a basic punch and you should have access to real bootfitting tools to do it properly.

[Jonathan S.]

IMO a skilled bootfitter should be able to get 4-5mm for the big toe without affecting insert alignment. Be very careful to shield the toe lug from heat when heating the boot (I use 2mm Bontex cut in a curve to match the boot), and have a proven way to punch the area effectively. I would suggest not using a Superfit/Blademaster hydraulic expander with the Alien or any thin-soled light touring boot.

Hmm, interesting...I would be curious to know if anyone has gotten that much extra toe length out of a full-on skimo race boot?
I've seen only one person out here with a punched toe on a race boot, and that was the boot I mentioned that was noticeably askew, and just half a click away from being ruined.

[gregL]

Well, I've punched several race boots for the usual PNW suspects, but none has asked for more length, only width. However, if you are very judicious about the heat application, shield the toe lug well, and don't use an internal expander that goes heel-to-toe and distorts the shell, I'd say thin-shelled light AT boots punch more easily for the most part than thicker alpine boots. Hard to comment without knowing what mechanical method was used on your friend's boot.

[summit]

How about 6th toe punches on the RS with its carbon impregnated grilamid?

[gregL]

How about 6th toe punches on the RS with its carbon impregnated grilamid?

I did a 6th toe punch on an Alien RS and it seemed to work fine.

[summit]

I did a 6th toe punch on an Alien RS and it seemed to work fine.

Going from the R to forward to the A, how many milimeters do you think you can get out of it max?

[XavierD]

A Lot... 6-8mm would be easy. More is possible.

sometimes just do.

[summit]

A Lot... 6-8mm would be easy. More is possible.

sometimes just do.

Wow! Ok just gotta take it to a bootfitter with experience and balls... the one I asked local said "maybe 2mm"