Electric Bike Thread

[summit]

The dirt-bike-turned-off analogy fails miserably. A dirt bike turned off is a 200# motorcycle with a dead motor and foot pegs. Dirt bikers are about the up. Nobody braps fire roads for DH descents.

An ebike turned off IS a pedal bicycle the weight of a DH bicycle that pedals like an enduro bicycle.

Around here there are lots of ebikes on no-ebike trails. Zero, and I mean zero, enforcement. So I was thinking of an ethical option, spirit of the law, specifically for otherwise shuttle-able rides, not a "to the silly letter of the law" view.

That said, I totally get that anyone could turn it off and lie, but that wouldn't be ethical. I also comprehend the "to the silly letter of the law," it is just, well, silly.

[XXX-er]

yeah if you hd no battery you could call it an acoustic bike but nobody is gona believe you had the motor turned off if you still have a battery

[toast2266]

An ebike turned off IS a pedal bicycle

No. An ebike turned off is an ebike that's turned off.

Like I said, you're trying to create a gray area where one doesn't exist. It might be a gray area in your mind, but it's not a gray area in the minds of the people that created the restrictions. And those are the minds that actually matter with regard to where you can legally ride your ebike.

You can complain about how it *should* be all you want, and you may very well have a valid point. And you can note that there is a general lack of enforcement, which is certainly true. But none of that changes the fact that ebikes are ebikes, regardless of whether the power switch is turned on or not.

[summit]

it's not a gray area in the minds of the people that created the restrictions. And those are the minds that actually matter with regard to where you can legally ride your ebike.

Irrelevant if the restrictions are disregarded en masse and not enforced. The letter of an unenforced law is not meaningful. But you could still care about the spirit even if other do not, and I do.

It is a de jure gray area in law as such a case has not been decided: an ebike turned off vs an ebike with a battery removed or with a dead battery or a disconnected but installed battery...

But an ebike turned off is defacto not an ebike. It is a pedal powered bicycle that is slightly heavier. The point, spirit, of an ebike is all about using a motor, not about 10lbs of weight.

[toast2266]

Irrelevant if the restrictions are disregarded en masse and not enforced.

You sound like someone that's never been to a trail advocacy meeting.

There are ramifications for ebike poaching that reach far beyond any direct impacts on the trail that is being poached.

But you've already justified it in your own brain, so I'm sure some random guy on the internet isn't going to change your mind. So bringing it back around, you should definitely buy a Levo SL.

[Andeh]

That is hilarious. Ebikes are less than 10% different for rider+bike weight, and probably have lower PSI on the contact patch because they typically have bigger tires. It is the motorized input to the drive wheel that could make the difference lap for lap on trail wear vs a pedal bike.

Not saying I agree with it, just that's what has been parroted by the anti-ebike parks departments / land holders down here. Along with hand-wavy claims about increased risk of fires from spontaneous battery combustion *cough thanks Tesla cough*.

[toast2266]

Along with hand-wavy claims about increased risk of fires from spontaneous battery combustion *cough thanks Tesla cough*.

Can't really blame that one entirely on tesla. 92 fires and 13 deaths related to ebikes in NYC so far this year.

I don't really see that as a valid concern on the trails (since they're not charging there), but people will certainly still hand waive.

[Dantheman]

Can't really blame that one entirely on tesla. 92 fires and 13 deaths related to ebikes in NYC so far this year.

Seriously? Holy shit.

[toast2266]

Seriously? Holy shit.

Well, according to the NY post. So... maybe / probably?

I think it's pretty much all sketchy Chinese bikes with ultra low quality batteries that have zero fault protection.

[Dantheman]

I think it's pretty much all sketchy Chinese bikes with ultra low quality batteries that have zero fault protection.

Yeah, probably.

[jm2e]

If my plan was to fly under the radar, I'd be looking at one of the Trek Fuel EXe. Debate the morality of poaching between different parts of the continent all you want, but if the plan is to go unnoticed that fucker looks like an analog bike with a medium sized down tube.
Four years on the Levos and we've still only had one person ever say anything to us about riding ebikes. It was a hiker who commented after half a micro-glance, so my guess has always been that he was a fellow mountain biker. Hikers have no idea and give zero shits. They've each made up their minds about bikes long before ebikes entered the fray. It's always been about whether mountain bikers use it as another reason for them to hate us.
Then again, my general lack of negative comments could be partially due to the fact that I practice aggressive trail courtesy. Which by the way is 1000x easier to do on an ebike.

[toastybroski]

I wish it was different but I don’t really feel like poaching. Up here in Montana 99% of trails do not allow ebikes and I don’t see that changing. Especially in Helena and the forests around here. Even the crappy places to ride don’t allow them.

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Judging from many of the posts here getting an E-bike makes you not care if they are or are not allowed. Freedumbs!

[zion zig zag]

^^^ Judging from many of the posts here getting an E-bike makes you not care if they are or are not allowed. Freedumbs!

Judging from what I see at my local (e-bike not allowed) trail system, they don’t give a shit. They’ve all made some kind of leap of logic, like Summit, on why they should be there.

And it’s not about me hating e-bikes, it’s about an already too crowded trail system where 50% of the riders shouldn’t even be there. And the horse riders and hikers, who are allowed, are starting to be vocal about it. But not about e-bikes, but vocal about bikes in general, because thats all they see. It doesn’t make me have the good feelings towards the mopeds.


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[rideit]

Around here there are lots of ebikes on no-ebike trails. Zero, and I mean zero, enforcement. .

Same here, and almost everywhere. Aside from the fact that they have no enforcement budget, it’s almost like they are conducting a compatibility experiment without going through the PITA process that ‘conducting a compatibility experiment’ would entail.

(Pass the tin-foil, wouldya?)

[Bunion 2020]

I think if it is an experiment it is inadvertent. Budgets for enforcement are minimal and besides, who in their right mind would want to have to do the enforcement.

I say fuck it, if a P-bike is allowed just open it to E-bikes and let the chips fall.

[climberevan]

And it’s not about me hating e-bikes, it’s about an already too crowded trail system where 50% of the riders shouldn’t even be there. And the horse riders and hikers, who are allowed, are starting to be vocal about it. But not about e-bikes, but vocal about bikes in general, because thats all they see. It doesn’t make me have the good feelings towards the mopeds.

As I've said from the beginning: the mopeders who poach will ruin things for everyone. The individual riders are of course ultimately responsible, but I also blame the industry which has allowed idiotic claims like "an e-bike that is turned off is a just a bicycle" to be made with a straight face.

Trails will be closed, and potential trails will not be permitted, and we'll have the poaching mopeders to blame. Keep your motor vehicles on the motorized trails--it's really that simple.

[rideit]

One curious dynamic I see locally is that some of the board members (and FS trail managers) are getting older, and finding e-bikes in their own personal quivers. They are the decision makers, ultimately.

[summit]

Short list:

FuelEXe & Kenevo SL - light e29ers should have normal bike manners on trail... and you can remove the main battery and fly with the bike with 2 range extenders in carry-on... the SL is just low power and the EXe might not be the best tool for gnar trails

Relay & Turbo Levo - heavier mullets but with so much more power that would be nice for bike park service road shuttle (my park only spins 6.5 hours a day 5 days a week while also usually being rideable for a few weeks before/after season)

For SAR I don't actually need a ton of range, but speed is good and power is super nice when moving with a heavy pack. Emtb are great get-to the-patient-quick tools, have seen that on SAR and working race medical... huge difference. They are also good search vehicles because they are quiet. We might try to rig a Chinese ebike motor to our wheeled litter... that would be sick.

[nest]

I think if it is an experiment it is inadvertent. Budgets for enforcement are minimal and besides, who in their right mind would want to have to do the enforcement.

I say fuck it, if a P-bike is allowed just open it to E-bikes and let the chips fall.

Et tu, Bunion

[rideit]

Acoustic bikes only on even days, E-bike only on Odd days?

[Bunion 2020]

Et tu, Bunion

The way I look at it is most hikers/horse people/mtn bike haters don't care if the 2 wheeled "machine" has a motor or not. They hate the rider and his machine so why bother making distinctions?

And I am not in the market for an E-bike nor do I own one.

I will be psyched when my Ortho gives me the green light to get back in the saddle. 15 weeks post op and I was able to change the oil in my truck this weekend and rotate the tires. I am sore but happy that I have made that much progress.

[Dantheman]

One curious dynamic I see locally is that some of the board members (and FS trail managers) are getting older, and finding e-bikes in their own personal quivers. They are the decision makers, ultimately.

Park City doesn't allow ebikes on singletrack and violations are a Class B misdemeanor. However, "This prohibition shall not apply to Class I e-bikes operated by persons age 65 or older within Park City Municipal limits."


Eurobike hilarity: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/electr...bike-2023.html

[rideit]

“35 is the new 65…you gonna card me?”

[Redsmurfer]

"Trails will be closed, and potential trails will not be permitted, and we'll have the poaching mopeders to blame."

Oh the horror of the predictable death of mountain biking!!!