Title 9 is dead

[Trackhead]

and fuck you if you think I’m going to put this shit into a spreadsheet for you.

[Mustonen]

These are all the races she ran in this spring. Where do we get more data? Last year when she was a HS junior?

I was thinking you might look at competitors at the same events and the same competitors at different events to make some meaningful statistical analysis to separate competitors into groups that make sense.

But you probably don’t actually need a ton more data if you wanted to keep it simple.

[Timberridge]

They're called seed times. They already do that. They don't put fast runners with slow runners in a race. It's never used to determine the outcome of a race like a handicap would be.

[californiagrown]

How is being trans any different than any other physical/mental trait? We dont offer exceptions for short people, slow people, weak people, or folks who are headcases that have difficulty performing under pressure. Why are transwomen the only people deserving of such an exception? No one is stopping trans folks from competing in rec leagues and enjoying the benefits of sport like the rest of us who didnt have the physical/mental talents to make it to the "next level".

[The AD]

Or find some other way to split them up. That’s the point right? Give little Jenny something to run for and not be demoralized by Becky who is 6’3” and an athletic freak, whether she’s cis or not? Or is it only a problem if we get to be transphobic about it?

To me an intrinsic part of sports is the realization nearly every athlete has that there's most likely going to be someone better than them and most athletes are going to lose more than they're going to win. And, yes, that the athletic freak is going to kick your ass. The calculus changes when someone suddenly becomes dominant, for example because they start taking steroids to improve their performance or they change their gender from male to female. I suppose some people might think these latter cases are just an example that "sports aren't fair," but to me they are way different. When you start altering your physiology through exogenous means you are doing something much different than training.

[dunfree]

To me an intrinsic part of sports is the realization nearly every athlete has that there's most likely going to be someone better than them and most athletes are going to lose more than they're going to win. And, yes, that the athletic freak is going to kick your ass. The calculus changes when someone suddenly becomes dominant, for example because they start taking steroids to improve their performance or they change their gender from male to female. I suppose some people might think these latter cases are just an example that "sports aren't fair," but to me they are way different. When you start altering your physiology through exogenous means you are doing something much different than training.

the easy solution is to make dominant participants no longer eligible to participate. Eg I’m aware of a non sports biennial competition where makers who’ve received gold medals at three separate competitions are no longer eligible to participate. The hard part for sports is the dominant competitor likes being dominant, and the fans of them enjoy the dominance, even if it’s bad for the sport overall.

at high levels aren’t most competitors exogenously altering/managing their physiology though? The question seems to be what’s the acceptable level of management which is a somewhat arbitrary line.

[The AD]

the easy solution is to make dominant participants no longer eligible to participate.

Why the hell would anyone advocate that?

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

It’s a tough topic, probably no perfect answer. For kids, I think it’s more nuanced.

When kids are involved, I personally see zero nuance in this. I just don't see any fathomable reason where the perceived "fairness" of youth sports would ever trump the outright inclusion of marginalized kids.

[Core Shot]

How is being trans any different than any other physical/mental trait? We dont offer exceptions for short people, slow people, weak people, or folks who are headcases that have difficulty performing under pressure. Why are transwomen the only people deserving of such an exception? No one is stopping trans folks from competing in rec leagues and enjoying the benefits of sport like the rest of us who didnt have the physical/mental talents to make it to the "next level".

Well. We do have special Olympics.
Which is cool for them. It’s a big party and everyone gets a trophy.

But as far as max human achievements? Isn’t there a standard?
Yes. Doping happens. That’s why they test.

But women can’t compete in chess? Wtf.

Someone said no more categories. Ok. Fine.
But then there’s no more sports for the fairer sex. It’s all equal. Or. Not.

[SumJongGuy]

When kids are involved, I personally see zero nuance in this. I just don't see any fathomable reason where the perceived "fairness" of youth sports would ever trump the outright inclusion of marginalized kids.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!^^^^^^^^^^^

Nobody in elementary through high school's going to go that extreme just to intentionally cheat. College is "professional" for all intents and purposes now so I have no problem with stricter eligibility rules at the college level.

Let's leave it to the NBA/WNBA to figure out how best to handle eligibility.

[californiagrown]

Nobody in elementary through high school's going to go that extreme just to intentionally cheat. College is "professional" for all intents and purposes now so I have no problem with stricter eligibility rules at the college level.

I think you are right for JV high school and below. Inclusion is A-OK, because those really are just rec-league sports. The participants are also usually young enough that the physical differences between the sexes hasnt become extreme, yet. Varsity and above is where something tangible and legit is on the line (scholarships, state championships, school records, etc), and the physical maturation of males has or is in the process of taking place.

No solution here will be perfect and work for every situation.

[mcski]

To me an intrinsic part of sports is the realization nearly every athlete has that there's most likely going to be someone better than them and most athletes are going to lose more than they're going to win. And, yes, that the athletic freak is going to kick your ass. The calculus changes when someone suddenly becomes dominant, for example because they start taking steroids to improve their performance or they change their gender from male to female. I suppose some people might think these latter cases are just an example that "sports aren't fair," but to me they are way different. When you start altering your physiology through exogenous means you are doing something much different than training.

Seems like the opposite to me in that PEDs are much more democratic than the genetic lottery of the “pure” athlete. If you want to improve your odds by any means necessary, have at it.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Varsity and above is where something tangible and legit is on the line (scholarships, state championships, school records, etc)

I'm (respectfully) a hard disagree on this as well. The number of trans athletes at this level is absurdly low. If they are interfering with securing a scholarship, then there are likely far larger forces at play (lack of skill, training, overall value of the athlete to colleges, etc.).

I also don't see any greater value in state championships or school records that would ever outweigh a society supporting marginalized children. That's a tough one for me to ever see the opposite POV on.

[SumJongGuy]

Seems like the opposite to me in that PEDs are much more democratic than the genetic lottery of the “pure” athlete. If you want to improve your odds by any means necessary, have at it.

I think it ultimately depends on what the WMBA and NWSL decide. If they let transleates play then there's no real argument for high school or college to exclude them. If the say no, ineligible, there is not much justification for college and high school varsity level either..

[californiagrown]

I'm a hard disagree on this as well. The number of trans athletes at this level is absurdly low. If they are interfering with securing a scholarship, then there are likely far larger forces at play (lack of skill, training, overall value of the athlete to colleges, etc.).

I also don't see any greater value in state championships or school records that would ever outweigh a society supporting marginalized children. That's a tough one for me to ever see the opposite POV on.

D1 studs will not be affected. agreed. But a borderline 800m girl who gets 4th in the state semis, and misses out on recording a state finals time to a trans girl, could miss out on getting noticed by colleges at the meet for a quick/rough example. Or the girl who worked her ass off at the 800m and had dreams of winning a state title like her mom before her gets beat out by a recently transitioned trans girl her senior year. The simple fact is that men and women are not starting from the same baseline, so if we are going to have separate womens sports, it should be for biological women.

I dont see the value in giving an artificial boost to trans-athletes when there are countless other ways to support them, where it doesnt come at the expense of other women (another marginalized group). If you dont allow trans girls to participate in girls sports it is unfair to a miniscule number of transgirls. If you do allow them to participate is is unfair to every single girl that they compete against.

[californiagrown]

Seems like the opposite to me in that PEDs are much more democratic than the genetic lottery of the “pure” athlete. If you want to improve your odds by any means necessary, have at it.

Eh, it would just make slightly different folks rise to the top. Different people respond differently to PEDs, some are super responders, some arent. Some can handle MASSIVE doses with few side effects, some get big side effects with minimal dosages. It would still be a genetic lottery, just slightly different numbers would hit the jackpot.

[The AD]

I dont see the value in giving an artificial boost to trans-athletes when there are countless other ways to support them, where it doesnt come at the expense of other women. If you dont allow trans girls to participate in girls sports it is unfair to a miniscule number of transgirls. If you do allow them to participate is is unfair to every single girl that they compete against.

I think this is well said.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

If you do allow them to participate is is unfair to every single girl that they compete against.

But there are a million reasons why the girls in your examples could have lost their races that have nothing to do with talent. Most of which (like socioeconomic status) we can't control. And this isn't settled science whatsoever. There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

So (not trying to make this political, but this issue is almost purely that right now), you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

[SumJongGuy]

You can say that again!..

[californiagrown]

But there are a million reasons why the girls in your examples could have lost their races that have nothing to do with talent. Most of which (like socioeconomic status) we can't control. And this isn't settled science whatsoever. There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

So (not trying to make this political, but this issue is almost purely that right now), you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

It is widely accepted in these studies that going through male puberty results in permanent physical changes such as increased bone size and density, increased lung size, etc beyond what is typically achievable through female puberty (not to mention the anotomical differences resulting in easier injury like ACL tears for women). Despite this, the analysis of some of these studies concludes that there is no link between these traits of transwomen and athletic success at the elite female level. I find it extremely difficult to believe that these traits do not offer a competitive advantage to an athlete all other things being equal.

I dont think there is a solution that is fair to everyone. So, i think we need to make sure we are as fair as possible to the overwhelmingly large majority. But all that said, i really dont care much about this... i have a son and dont ever watch womens sports except if the olympics are on, so this issue is about as lowdown on my priority list as what color they should paint a fire lane curb.

[mcphee]

you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

Needs repeated.

[mcski]

But there are a million reasons why the girls in your examples could have lost their races that have nothing to do with talent. Most of which (like socioeconomic status) we can't control. And this isn't settled science whatsoever. There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

So (not trying to make this political, but this issue is almost purely that right now), you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

Totally agree w this. This issue definitely is not the real threat to Title 9

[Mustonen]

They're called seed times. They already do that. They don't put fast runners with slow runners in a race. It's never used to determine the outcome of a race like a handicap would be.

Excellent point. Cut the field in half (or into quarters or more, depending on how big the conference is). Use the seed times to do the cutting. Equally fund all splits.

[The AD]

Excellent point. Cut the field in half (or into quarters or more, depending on how big the conference is). Use the seed times to do the cutting. Equally fund all splits.

The goal is to be the fastest runner, not the runner who improves the most.

[dunfree]

I think you are right for JV high school and below. Inclusion is A-OK, because those really are just rec-league sports. The participants are also usually young enough that the physical differences between the sexes hasnt become extreme, yet. Varsity and above is where something tangible and legit is on the line (scholarships, state championships, school records, etc), and the physical maturation of males has or is in the process of taking place.

No solution here will be perfect and work for every situation.

There is fuckall on the line for most high school varsity sports. The number of high school athletes that play in college is <10% with the exception of ice hockey (m & w) and m lacrosse (m&w)That’s just what playing, and only 1/3 of them get any sort of scholarship.

lord this thread reeks of middle aged dudes dreaming of glory days