Title 9 is dead

[Timberridge]

The only thing worse than swimming training is being a swimming kid's parent. 105F Sacramento Sunday--"The next event is 32 heats of girls' 6 and under freestyle and we aren't starting until we get some timers"--all to watch your kid compete for about 90 seconds all day. Now water polo otoh . . .

You should try ski comps.

[byates1]

Hide your kids hide your wife

Dunfree is heading over

https://youtu.be/hMtZfW2z9dw?si=KACKZfj4sgCjMahG

[riser4]

The only thing worse than swimming training is being a swimming kid's parent. 105F Sacramento Sunday--"The next event is 32 heats of girls' 6 and under freestyle and we aren't starting until we get some timers"--all to watch your kid compete for about 90 seconds all day. Now water polo otoh . . .

Lulz. Fortunately my sentence as a swim parent was served years ago and in a small state where only the state meet got over ten heats for any event. The regular meets never got above 4 heats. League championship meets maybe got to 6 heats. I did a lot of timing.

[The AD]

It doesn't get any better at the masters level. I swam at Nationals in Irvine this spring and there were nearly 2,500 swimmers. The meet went from 8:00 am to about 6:00 pm every day for four days. Luckily there's live streaming, so you have a good idea when you'll be swimming and can plan when you need to show up.

[old goat]

You should try ski comps.

Yeah, that has occured to me.

[The AD]

By a cis gender female high school athlete who is going to college on athletic scholarship who wasn't worried about competing against them or playing on the same team with them. There's a deeper conversation there than Idaho creates batshit crazy laws. We all already know that part.

But to me her objections seemed to be based on the specifics of Idaho's law, such as the requirement for "gender checks" if anyone questions an athlete's gender and also the outright ban on ALL transgender athletes. I really hope most people think both of those are going way too far.

[Conundrum]

That is how they filed the lawsuit with the best chance of winning. In personal conversations with her and her folks, she wanted them to be included because they're humans going through a tough time in their lives and she truly didn't have a problem competing against or with them and the locker room fear shenanigans was just that. She had been around it and said folks going through it were not there to perve on anyone and that they had a problem with the locker room just as much as the cis kids because they didn't fit in. But now I'm just repeating what I already posted.

[The AD]

I was training with a kid's swim team up till just a few years ago and my experience is that most kids are real prudes in the locker room. They're not exactly walking around naked. Most cover themselves with a towel to change or even go into a bathroom stall. I have a feeling that a trans person using the locker/changing room might make others feel a bit uncomfortable at first, but like most things, no one would even pay attention after they got used to it. It should be very obvious that people aren't changing their gender so they can be locker room creepers.

The public restroom "issue" is even sillier. I'm confident women are doing their business in locking stalls. What's the problem with a trans person in there?

[J. Barron DeJong]

It should be very obvious that people aren't changing their gender so they can be locker room creepers.

Yeah, it should be.

[TBS]

That is how they filed the lawsuit with the best chance of winning. In personal conversations with her and her folks, she wanted them to be included because they're humans going through a tough time in their lives and she truly didn't have a problem competing against or with them and the locker room fear shenanigans was just that. She had been around it and said folks going through it were not there to perve on anyone and that they had a problem with the locker room just as much as the cis kids because they didn't fit in. But now I'm just repeating what I already posted.

It’s worth repeating. This kid has her head screwed on straight, with empathy and perspective.

[J. Barron DeJong]

But. Her bullshit about how there aren’t enough trans to make a difference is bullshit.

Checked the numbers on this.

There are 32 openly trans athletes in the NCAA (not sure men vs. women). There are ~226,000 female NCAA athletes.

If all trans athletes are competing as female, that would be 0.014%, or 1 in 7000+.

How low does that number need to go to ‘not make a difference?

(Maybe you’re thinking of it as ‘even one person can make a difference!’, but not in the uplifting way the phrase is usually used.)

[Core Shot]

Checked the numbers on this.

There are 32 openly trans athletes in the NCAA (not sure men vs. women). There are ~226,000 female NCAA athletes.

If all trans athletes are competing as female, that would be 0.014%, or 1 in 7000+.

How low does that number need to go to ‘not make a difference’?

If you follow the media. It’s 5% trans.

Your numbers seem more normal. And believable.

[J. Barron DeJong]

If you follow the media. It’s 5% trans.

Your numbers seem more normal. And believable.

I would suggest maybe my media sources are more normal, and believable.

[summit]

Checked the numbers on this.

There are 32 openly trans athletes in the NCAA (not sure men vs. women). There are ~226,000 female NCAA athletes.

If all trans athletes are competing as female, that would be 0.014%, or 1 in 7000+.

How low does that number need to go to ‘not make a difference?

(Maybe you’re thinking of it as ‘even one person can make a difference!’, but not in the uplifting way the phrase is usually used.)

That is a very reasonable question. The answer is surprisingly very few. But WHY?

If you superimposed the curves for athletic ability, one for males one for females, the center of the bell curve for males would intersect above the upper quartile of the the female curve. Put another way, the average male high school athlete can crush most top tier female college athletes. So, you only need a small number of males competing against females to skew top level competition and destroy records. Over time, a small amount of males trickling through female competition will tend to end up with most of the records.

That reality is the entire basis for sex segregated sports and Title IX. Title IX wasn't created to support individual feelings of social inclusion, but rather a fair playing field for females.

[Core Shot]

I would suggest maybe my media sources are more normal, and believable.

When I found out my nephew was my niece I asked my mom and bride what is the gay percent. They said 10-20%
Then I asked about trans and they said 3-4%

[The AD]

Furthermore, the numbers are still small, but I think it's realistic to assume those numbers will increase--not that that's a bad thing--but it will mean these rare situations today may become more common in the future.

[J. Barron DeJong]

When I found out my nephew was my niece I asked my mom and bride what is the gay percent. They said 10-20%
Then I asked about trans and they said 3-4%

UCLA’s School of Law Williams Institute estimates that about 1.6 million people ages 13 and up identify as transgender in the U.S. Of that population, 300,000 are youths ages 13 to 17 and make up 1.4% of the U.S. population for that age group.

https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2023/03...��%20he%20said.

But just because 1.4% of the population may be trans, I don’t think that means you should expect 1.4% of NCAA athletes to end up being trans.

[californiagrown]

Checked the numbers on this.

There are 32 openly trans athletes in the NCAA (not sure men vs. women). There are ~226,000 female NCAA athletes.

If all trans athletes are competing as female, that would be 0.014%, or 1 in 7000+.

How low does that number need to go to ‘not make a difference?

(Maybe you’re thinking of it as ‘even one person can make a difference!’, but not in the uplifting way the phrase is usually used.)

Its not the number of trans participants. Its how good the trans athletes are. Are they overrepresented in the top 1% of their sport? If so, that would seem to point towards an unfair advantage, and that is where the issue is... E.g. Lia Thomas.

[J. Barron DeJong]

That is a very reasonable question. The answer is surprisingly very few. But WHY?

If you superimposed the curves for athletic ability, one for males one for females, the center of the bell curve for males would intersect above the upper quartile of the the female curve. Put another way, the average male high school athlete can crush most top tier female college athletes. So, you only need a small number of males competing against females to skew top level competition and destroy records. Over time, a small amount of males trickling through female competition will tend to end up with most of the records.

That reality is the entire basis for sex segregated sports and Title IX. Title IX wasn't created to support individual feelings of social inclusion, but rather a fair playing field for females.

But you’re not talking about ‘males’ competing against females, you’re talking about transgendered females, and the bell curve for transgendered female athletic performance probably looks much different than males.

Not an expert, but I’d guess that combinations of genetics, environment, hormone therapy would lead to differences between athletic performance of a typical male vs. typical trans female, and I think it’s likely that the trans population is less likely to take part in competitive athletics at all, though that could change somewhat with greater acceptance.

[Flounder]

Title IX wasn't created to support individual feelings of social inclusion, but rather a fair playing field for females.

Title IX wasn’t created to make a fair playing field, it was created to make a playing field where one didn’t exist before. Schools were not investing in women’s sports because there was no money in it. Title IX just said if you’re taking public money you’ve got to invest in sports programs for both women and men.

To me if a school is taking public money they need to find a way to accommodate anyone that wants to play, including trans people. The whole justification of spending public education money on sports are for all benefits associated with being part of a team, competing against others and yourself, and learn about winning and losing. If this is true, everyone should have the opportunity.

We are talking about a minuscule number of trans athletes and as the greatest nation in the world you’d think we could figure it out. Right now there are more ass clowns throwing on a dress and entering women’s sports events to “own the libs” than there are trans athletes.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Its not the number of trans participants. It’s how good the trans athletes are. Are they overrepresented in the top 1% of their sport? If so, that would seem to point towards an unfair advantage, and that is where the issue is... E.g. Lia Thomas.

I think that’s where it gets complicated, and why I’m glad I’m not qualified to make the rules. There’s a desire to not give a competitive advantage, but also to have inclusiveness, and I believe inclusiveness is a worthwhile goal. But I get that there’s a tension here that needs to be addressed.

[Trackhead]

[QUOTE=The AD;6913993

The public restroom "issue" is even sillier. I'm confident women are doing their business in locking stalls. What's the problem with a trans person in there?[/QUOTE]

I think the only qualified person to opine on this would be a cis-gender female. I can’t see how an adult male would have any idea. Kinda like abortion rights with men telling women what’s right/wrong.

[summit]

But you’re not talking about ‘males’ competing against females, you’re talking about transgendered females, and the bell curve for transgendered female athletic performance probably looks much different than males.

Not an expert, but I’d guess that combinations of genetics, environment, hormone therapy would lead to differences between athletic performance of a typical male vs. typical trans female, and I think it’s likely that the trans population is less likely to take part in competitive athletics at all, though that could change somewhat with greater acceptance.

You have your terms confused. Being transgendered does not change primary biological sex. It is a gender identity trans to sex rather than identifying with a gender cis to primary biological sex.

Transwomen are not females. Transmen are females. We are talking about transwomen, that is transgendered males, competing against females in "women's sports" because they want to segregate competition categories by gender identity rather than by biology.

Male genetics, particularly having gone through male puberty, is what defines the biologically based athletic performance curves. Doing hormone therapy later does not negate this. That doesn't stop some folks as throwing hormone therapy out as a "qualifier," but doing so doesn't solve the disparity of reality.

[Trackhead]

Transwomen are not females. Transmen are females.

We are talking about transwomen, that is transgendered males, competing against females.

Male genetics plus going through male puberty is what defines the athletic performance curves. Doing hormone therapy does not negate this.

Nobody read it, but the 24 page UCI document I posted previously both supports and at times, contradicts this statement. Hemoglobin is one physiological parameter that does quickly decline with HRT to female comparative levels. Q-angles, muscle mass, and some other parameters remain in advantage of males.

[J. Barron DeJong]

You have your terms confused. Being transgendered does not change biological sex. It is a gender identity trans to sex rather than identifying with a gender cis to primary biological sex.

Transwomen are not females. Transmen are females.

We are talking about transwomen, that is transgendered males, competing against females.

Male genetics plus going through male puberty is what defines the athletic performance curves. Doing hormone therapy does not negate this.

Oh, FFS. Yes, I obviously meant trans women competing against women. And I believe the the bell curve of trans women is likely significantly different than that of males as a whole.