Title 9 is dead

[Mudfoot]

The discussion reminds me of men telling women what abortion rights should be.

This thread is exclusively about women's sports. How about we let exclusively women decide who can compete?

[JimmyCarter]

These threads let you know who people really are.

Oh FFS
“I use someone’s viewpoint on whether we should be able to fit people into one of two groups to fit them into one of two groups”

[mcphee]

Well, one guy outed himself as incredibly racist and another is a regular viewer of a hateful bigot.

Not quite the oversimplification you’ve made it out to be Jimmy.

[JimmyCarter]

Well, one guy outed himself as incredibly racist and another is a regular viewer of a hateful bigot.

Not quite the oversimplification you’ve made it out to be Jimmy.

Not as simple as this discussion topic, amirite???

[Danno]

everyone has an issue or issues where their POV is going to seem "messed up" to others, even if they are otherwise "on your side". I draw no conclusions from "threads like these" beyond the specific issues in this thread.

[mcphee]

Not as simple as this discussion topic, amirite???

Totally bruh!

[mcphee]

everyone has an issue or issues where their POV is going to seem "messed up" to others, even if they are otherwise "on your side". I draw no conclusions from "threads like these" beyond the specific issues in this thread.

You don’t make judgements on people based on their viewpoints, where they get info, and how they speak about others?

You’re a saint!

[jono]

The discussion reminds me of men telling women what abortion rights should be.

This thread is exclusively about women's sports. How about we let exclusively women decide who can compete?

Apparently someone didn't believe her when she weighed in with actual experience.

This could be our worst thread.

[Danno]

You don’t make judgements on people based on their viewpoints, where they get info, and how they speak about others?

You’re a saint!

No, I don't make deep important judgments about people and their character based on what they say about one hot button issue on an internet forum. You have said some stupid nasty shit on here, do you want to be judged on it?

[mcphee]

^Yes as long as it’s in the context of who I was yelling at. Most of the stupid nasty shit I say are to some of the worst humans on here.

[Conundrum]

The discussion reminds me of men telling women what abortion rights should be.

This thread is exclusively about women's sports. How about we let exclusively women decide who can compete?

How do we define the "women" who will be deciding?

[mcski]

This is an absolute scientific falsehood and a logical fallacy. Try 0.01%. It deserves to be called out: The fallacy and being off by a factor of 1000x.

A small number people are born missing a leg or with a malformed leg. Others acquire the condition. That doesn't mean we are a species with a "spectrum of limbs." We are a bipedal species.

A small number of abnormalities does not turn a binary or unary into a "spectrum." This is a logical falsehood. This is pure and simple redefining definitions to match an ideological narrative.

Does that invalidate the "limb loss/deficiency" category in Paralympics? Of course not.
Can anyone just "identify" as limb deficient and be taken at their word for competition? Of course not.



This is also incorrect, off by an order of magnitude or two more likely. They are probably unknowingly referencing the poorly written Fausto-Sterling article from over 20 years ago that merely speculated a number of 1.7%. The author was quite soundly repudiated by her scientific colleagues because she basically just made up a new definition for intersex that didn't match anyone's clinical or scientific understanding.

Intersex prevalence is a small fraction of a percent, it might generously round up to 0.1% aggregating all the different disorders and abnormalities that get grouped under Intersex (phenotype unclassifiable or not matching genotype) but it is probably closer to 0.01% than 0.1%.

Based on the numbers, 1.5 seems generally accepted for having an intersex trait and .5 as having clearly identifiable physical discrepancies. Given the long history and plentiful stories of hermaphroditism throughout history, 0.5 seems like a pretty conservative number. And clearly, it is on some kind of spectrum, like pretty much every other aspect of biology

[californiagrown]

The discussion reminds me of men telling women what abortion rights should be.

This thread is exclusively about women's sports. How about we let exclusively women decide who can compete?

Eh, i think that's a copout. Its a societal issue (a teeny, tiny, superduper rare, borderline hypothetical issue at that). FWIW, abortion affects about 2/3 female, 1/3rd male. The mother (female), and then the unborn fetus who has about equal chance male vs female).


Also, my wife is a true blue SJW (more than im willing to get into on here). However, she did run track at a D1 school, and because of that this is one issue where she is not in lockstep with the far left. Its a complicated, super nuanced "problem" that we currently dont have any good answers for.... that is exactly the type of thing which lends itself to good internet debate.

[SumJongGuy]

[Mudfoot]

Eh, i think that's a copout. Its a societal issue (a teeny, tiny, superduper rare, borderline hypothetical issue at that). FWIW, abortion affects about 2/3 female, 1/3rd male. The mother (female), and then the unborn fetus who has about equal chance male vs female).


Also, my wife is a true blue SJW (more than im willing to get into on here). However, she did run track at a D1 school, and because of that this is one issue where she is not in lockstep with the far left. Its a complicated, super nuanced "problem" that we currently dont have any good answers for.... that is exactly the type of thing which lends itself to good internet debate.

I respect women who devote themselves to becoming athletes and think we should allow them to define there own sports. It may be a societal issue to you but it is very personal to them. I trust them to make a good decision in the long run, regardless of the opinions of non-trans men.

[Trackhead]

How do we define the "women" who will be deciding?

I know this isn't a laughing matter, but this post is kinda hilarious and ironic at the same time given the context of TGR.

I personally could care less about what people want to do in regards to their gender identity, surgery, hormones, etc. Like I've said before, universally all the transmen I have seen as patients are generally sad, depressed, some hopeless. They often lead very lonely/isolated lives with little support from family/parents in many cases. I have never had transwomen as patients, so no experience.

That said, when it comes to athletics, it is a different issue as it does potentially affect others and it is a valid topic or concern. I don't think someone should be pegged a bigot or homophobe or whatever else if they question the validity/ethics/physiologic advantage of biologic men/transwoman participating in female sport. It is the kneejerk reflex in today's society to immediately attack those that ask valid questions, and not actually answer the question being asked. The ability to influence or change the opinion should be the goal, not a personal attack.

I bet if someone here had a son that was transitioning and could tell an anecdotal story about the difficulties they faced, or if someone had a daughter who was continually beat by a trans-athlete and was sharing a shower with someone with a penis, we'd probably all listed more intently. Instead, it's mudslinging accusations of bigotry, trans-phobia, and all the rest.

[mud]

It's the same as doping.
I'm going to take something that is not natural to boost my performance.
We have just reached the end game that started with the Dream Team for my generation.
It's not about sport anymore, it's about winning at all costs.

[TBS]

^^^Due to the money involved
If all sports were amateur and rec league why is someone gonna care?

[The AD]

^^^Due to the money involved
If all sports were amateur and rec league why is someone gonna care?

It's still competition and competitors are by nature competitive. Some much more than others.

[mcphee]

no one is transitioning for athletic competition reasons jesus fucking christ you guys

[TBS]

^^^Agreed for 99.999%. There may be an edge case somewhere, but I doubt it.

It's still competition and competitors are by nature competitive. Some much more than others.

The competition should be within yourself. Did you do the best you could? If so, why regrets?

[The AD]

The competition should be within yourself. Did you do the best you could? If so, why regrets?

This sounds dangerously close to "you're all winners!"

[TBS]

No, it sounds dangerously close to “who gives a fuck about a fucking game”

[The AD]

No, it sounds dangerously close to “who gives a fuck about a fucking game”

Shit tons of people do.

[TBS]

Why? Sounds like neuroses to me.
I thought the objective of games was to have fun