Crampon and ice axe question

[skibrd]

It’s time to pick up a pair of crampons and an ice axe for spring skiing in the Tetons.

With all the options for crampons, anyone have any suggestions of what they have that has worked well? I’m reading and hearing Aluminium crampons are lighter, but their have been some issues with teeth bending and breaking? Was this an issue with the first Aluminium crampons that has been fixed by the newer models? I’m also hearing some people swear by steel still, as well as some guide companies mandate steel for all clients.

Ice axes, any reason for skiing to go with any specific axe? The BD Venom was recommended by a friend because the slightly bend shaft keeps your knuckles more out of the snow/ice then a straight shaft. She also recommended the BD Raven. Any reason to get one of the Aluminium axes other then shed weight or stick with one of the steel axes? I read a few reviews about the Aluminium axes, and some people are claiming they are just about useless since the blades don’t have the strength to actually be useful when you need an ice axes blade to be useful. Anyone have any first hand experience on why one is better the another?

Please take into account I’m 6-4, pushing 220 with ski mountaineering gear on. I prefer slightly heavier skis, bindings, and boots due to that I’m not a small person. Think 193 Blizzard Scouts, Kingpins and Lange XT Freetours instead of Zero Gs, Dynafits bindings and boots.

Thanks


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[Norseman]

Aluminum crampons are well suited to booting up or across steep snow (snow!). If you kick them into ice or rock, they can bend. If you gingerly step across the hard surfaces, you'll probably be ok, but the security and confidence of the steelies are unmatched. I have Sabertooth steels and Neve alu which both fit my Vulcans well. "Pro" versions only, with the rigid bails... don't bother with the hiking boot compatible ones with the straps.

Ice axe... you'll want one with a long shaft for reaching the ground even when walking across a mellow pitch, which would kill the slight weight benefit of an aluminum head... and I wouldn't trust an aluminum head to stand up to repeated chopping or picking if you really need to use the thing hard. It'd become dull too fast and could fatigue. I have a BD Raven in the backup rack but like my Grivel much better (little details like the wrist strap, head casting, joint reinforcement).

My opinion: if the slope is mellow enough for skinning, even if mirror-polished ice, I'd rather be on my skis with ski crampons (and long steel ski edges) than fuck around with boot pons mid-tour. If I'm there to ski, I'm not going to tolerate long pitches of mandatory boot pons anyway... with the obvious exception of an early start in pre-corn hours. If you're on the big stuff that early, then boot pons will be on at the tent.

[smooth operator]

Petzl is making some really nice stuff right now. I just got the Irvis hybrid crampons, steel toe and alu heel. Almost as light as my alu CAMP tour 350, but I can climb (occasional) Ice or rock. I used to be debating all the time wether to bring alu or steel, now it is solved! Packs down tiny too.

The petzl gully looks like a rad skimo axe. 280 grams.....

[kootenayskier]

I usually end up carrying them around without using them, so for me light is right. My Camp XLC390 Automatic crampons and 70cm Corsa Nanotech axe seem ideal for steepish frozen snow climbing. Go with steel crampons and a more technical axe (that Petzl Gully looks sweet) if you're planning on attempting ice or rock.

[auvgeek]

I and many of my ski partners have gone Petzl Gully + Irvis hybrid. I think they're both great, personally. Obviously, the Gully is pretty short and doesn't plunge into frozen snow super well, but I haven't reached for my longer axe in a while. If you want something burlier, longer, and with a steel spike, the new (2017+) Petzl Sum'Tec is pretty awesome and has T-rated shaft/pick, interchangeable picks, etc. The Cassin X-Light also looks sweet, but I haven't used it.

One caveat with the cord tech crampons is that you have to adjust them tighter for the first few times you use them. The cord should be tight, like guitar-string tight. The lack of a microadjust means they don't fit all boots perfectly, but I just aim for as tight as possible. If you want something less finicky, Grivel makes the Haute Route and I'm sure Camp has something similar. But I really love how compact the Irvis packs up. Obviously, the Ivris hybrid isn't a super technical crampon, but FWIW kevino said they climb "moderate ice better than expected." Read: you'd have to be climbing pretty difficult ice to need a more technical crampon.

Also, people disparage the whippet, but I think it's nice insurance for steep, icy sidehilling (plus, you don't have to be *that guy* skinning with his axe out) and you can climb decently steep, firm snow with one hybrid tool (Gully, older Sum'Tec) and a whippet. Won't really help you self-arrest a fall with any velocity/momentum, though.

[goldenboy]

Unless you live somewhere where you know you'll run into a lot of ice and rock, go aluminum. I love my CAMPs, but the other suggestions look good as well. I would stay far away from any ice axes that have a 45 degree spike. The spike constantly ricochets off hard snow, I despised my Raven Ultra for that reason. I know of at least one shop that had a big sign saying they refused to carry or sell any ice axe with a 45 degree spike

[hutash]

It all depends on what you will actually be doing. If you are just going to be walking on snow all the time, which mamy of us are, and you just need them for morning frozen snow, the Al pons are fine. They are there mostly as a back up. If you are going to be doing any 'real" mountaineering, stick with steel.

[zion zig zag]

A lot of people disparage the whippet, but I think it's nice insurance for steep, icy sidehilling (plus, you don't have to be *that guy* with his axe out) and you can climb decently steep, firm snow with one hybrid tool (Gully, older Sum'Tec) and a whippet. Won't really help you self-arrest a fall with any velocity/momentum, though.

One whippet and one axe is my go to for climbing "skiable" stuff. In other words, if I needed two axes to climb it, it isn't something that I'm going to ski.

[Norseman]

One whippet and one axe is my go to for climbing "skiable" stuff. In other words, if I needed two axes to climb it, it isn't something that I'm going to ski.

3rded

[zion zig zag]

It all depends on what you will actually be doing. If you are just going to be walking on snow all the time, which mamy of us are, and you just need them for morning frozen snow, the Al pons are fine. They are there mostly as a back up. If you are going to be doing any 'real" mountaineering, stick with steel.

So for the Tetons, AL would be fine for Buck mountain and the Skillet? And any route on the Grand or something like Koven on Mount Owen you'd take steel?

[GeezerSteve]

It all depends on what you will actually be doing.

This is the answer.

IME a high quality Al alloy crampon on the burly end of the spectrum (e.g., Stubai Ultralight) works just fine for nearly all general mountaineering routes. I've used Al crampons hundreds of times in the past 20 years, a period during which my steel crampons never left the gear room. That you are asking for advice is evidence that Al alloy crampons will work fine for you. People who do routes requiring steel crampons don't need to ask. My advice is to get Al crampons and get out there. If you work up to more technical routes, you might want to supplement with steel.

An ice axe is only as good as the skills of the user. Learning to arrest from all possible falling positions as second nature is more important than gear selection. Axes with Al heads are fine for caning, low dagger and belaying, but the lack of mass in the head makes them suck for swinging. Again, it depends on what you're doing. For someone getting into mountaineering, I usually recommend a relatively lightweight steel headed general mountaineering axe, e.g., BD Raven.

ETA: +1 re Whippet + axe for steeper stuff. We often travel with one ski pole and an ice axe. When I lead a rope team on an active glacier I usually carry an axe and a fully extended pole for probing crevasse bridges.

[Norseman]

ETA: +1 re Whippet + axe for steeper stuff. We often travel with one ski pole and an ice axe. When I lead a rope team on an active glacier I usually carry an axe and a fully extended pole for probing crevasse bridges.

+1 for long axe shaft.

[skibrd]

So for the Tetons, AL would be fine for Buck mountain and the Skillet? And any route on the Grand or something like Koven on Mount Owen you'd take steel?

Perfect comment Zion zig zag! I will be in the Tetons, since Jackson is home. Sounds like the Aluminum is the way to go for crampons at this point in my ski mountaineering, especially since Buck and the Skillet are on the list for this spring if the weather lines up with my days off. I dream of making it up the Grand with skis some day, but if I don’t, I’ll still die a happy man. I’ve checked out the leopard aluminum ones with the line and I am not sure how much I like possibly having to Dick around with tightening them mid climb.

Long steel ice axe seems to be the general consensus. I’ll check out the different options tonight and go from there.

On a side note, this might be the most honest thread on TGR. Thanks everyone! I’ll keep everyone posted on what I get and how it all works

[auvgeek]

I’ve checked out the leopard aluminum ones with the line and I am not sure how much I like possibly having to Dick around with tightening them mid climb.

I've never needed to tighten them mid climb. If you're really worried about it, you could get the cord wet, put them on your boots, and let them sit for a few hours. Tighten and repeat a few times. But personally, I just used them and tightened them after each of the first two uses.

Personally, I would just get the Irvis hybrid. Steel front points can be nice on steep, firm snow, and the 5 oz doesn't make much of a difference in your pack unless you're on race gear.

If you do go full Al, I've also heard good things about the Camp tour 350, and I don't think they have the adjustment issues of the leopard system (but I've never used them, personally).

Oh, and you can probably find an long, steel axe for pretty cheap. People buy them, use them once, and decide they aren't really into mountaineering. Check local used gear shops.

One final thought: if you haven't seen the recent Kingpin failure thread, be wary of using them in steep, icy terrain where a fall would be consequential.

[GeezerSteve]

Yeah, long (80-90 cm) axe is nice for walking, but there's extra effort when self belaying up steeper stuff if the axe plunges to the head, and that can get quite fatiguing. When you can't sink the shaft more than 25-40 cm or so in firm snow, the result is a longer lever above the snow surface, not a good thing. If you have a long axe, practice slipping and grabbing the shaft at the snow surface to lessen the lever length (standard self-belay technique).

I prefer 70-75 cm for general mountaineering. Honey uses a 65cm axe.

[skibrd]

I've never needed to tighten them mid climb. If you're really worried about it, you could get the cord wet, put them on your boots, and let them sit for a few hours. Tighten and repeat a few times. But personally, I just used them and tightened them after each of the first two uses.

Personally, I would just get the Irvis hybrid. Steel front points can be nice on steep, firm snow, and the 5 oz doesn't make much of a difference in your pack unless you're on race gear.

If you do go full Al, I've also heard good things about the Camp tour 350, and I don't think they have the adjustment issues of the leopard system (but I've never used them, personally).

Oh, and you can probably find an long, steel axe for pretty cheap. People buy them, use them once, and decide they aren't really into mountaineering. Check local used gear shops.

One final thought: if you haven't seen the recent Kingpin failure thread, be wary of using them in steep, icy terrain where a fall would be consequential.

Thanks for the advice, Ill check Headwall for a used axe and see what’s available.

I honestly feel the whole Kingpin thread is over reacting. The failures appear to be people who are using them as their only inbounds bindings as well as touring on them. A dedicated tech toe binding will never ski as good, be as durable, or as reliable as an alpine binding. I’m a firm believer that it is irresponsible to ski a tech toe binding as your only binding. If you want to guarantee that your binding will never fail well skiing, don’t go skiing cause you can never make that mistake. If you want the best chances to not have a binding failure, CAST is your only answer.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[Aenigma]

Long axes are great for walking around on mellow stuff, but they are pretty annoying if you're actually climbing something steep. I used to have a 74cm straight axe, and decided to get rid of it after having to lift over my head a few thousand times while climbing couloirs. Having a big pointy thing sticking toward the back of my head on my pack made me nervous, too. I'm much happier after switching to a 59cm, slightly bent axe (Petzl Summit 2); too short for support on the flats and too long for xtreeeeem climbing, but great for any terrain that is fun to ski. I'm 6' 1", for reference.

There is some personal preference that goes into picking axes, but the functional differences in designs are significant. I wouldn't get an aluminum head unless it's never leaving your pack.

As far as crampons go, aluminum works for most things you aren't going to use a rope on. I used to have some BD Neves that were pretty nice, and switched to Petzl Leopards after getting boots that didn't work with the Neves. I have (extremely carefully) climbed up short slabs of bare gneiss on the Leopards without any problems, but aluminum is not the best choice for much rock or ice use. Coincidentally, both those surface types totally suck for skiing, so they're good to avoid anyway.

[skibrd]

Thanks everyone.

Sounds like the Petzl Leopards are the way to go for what I’m interested in, and that’s getting some more grip when it gets hard, to get to fun skiing, but not for ice and rock. Ropes are fun, but where I’m at with my education in exploring the Tetons, they are not what I’m looking for yet.

Ill take my pack, and toss some stuff in it, when I go check out axes to see where the top end alights with my head.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[whatsupdoc]

For skiing I'd definitely lean towards a shorter axe. If it's mellow you'll likely be skinning, so you won't need a long cane to walk around with. When booting something steep, a shorter axe is much nicer for plunging above you as DIY Steve mentioned. Plus it's lighter and less bulky on your pack.

I am also a big fan of the 1 axe/1 whippet for booting something you plan on skiing.

I have a 50 cm Camp Corsa Nanotech and really like it for skiing. The small steel attachments to the tip and spike make a big difference. It's very, very light. I'm 5'10" and have never wished for a longer axe.

For pure skiing, aluminum crampons are the way to go. I got some Leopards this year and they've worked well. I haven't had any issues with them loosening (but I dialed the fit in at home before using them). I had BD Neves previously and they also worked well for me.

[gavinski91]

I would take the new Petzl Ride over the Corsa Nanotech. My brother has the Ride and it's great. Steel head, but the same weight as the Corsa Nanotech, and with the 45cm length you can stow the entire thing in your pack so you don't have to worry about getting stabbed in a fall.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

For skiing I'd definitely lean towards a shorter axe. If it's mellow you'll likely be skinning, so you won't need a long cane to walk around with. When booting something steep, a shorter axe is much nicer for plunging above you as DIY Steve mentioned. Plus it's lighter and less bulky on your pack.

I am also a big fan of the 1 axe/1 whippet for booting something you plan on skiing.

I have a 50 cm Camp Corsa Nanotech and really like it for skiing. The small steel attachments to the tip and spike make a big difference. It's very, very light. I'm 5'10" and have never wished for a longer axe.

For pure skiing, aluminum crampons are the way to go. I got some Leopards this year and they've worked well. I haven't had any issues with them loosening (but I dialed the fit in at home before using them). I had BD Neves previously and they also worked well for me.

That sums it up for me. Make sure the Crampons fit your boots. If you get Leopards just put them on your boots as tightly as possible and leave them on your boots overnight. They only seem to stretch out once.

[auvgeek]

What's the advantage of >55 cm axes for skiing? I own a 70 cm raven that's basically sat on the shelf since I bought the Petzl Gully and Sum'Tec. I use my ski poles for balance on mellow slopes and a Sum'Tec for plunging on steeper slopes. Petzl Ride/Gully works fine too, minus the plunging issues goldenboy mentioned.

But I know norseman and steve get out a lot so I'm curious what their argument is.

[rod9301]

Getting stranded in a fall?
I put my ice axe on my back, between the pack and my back, under one shoulder strap.

If i fall, the adze is in perfect position to get pushed against my head.

I put it there when I ski and I thing might encounter ice.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[rod9301]

I meant getting stabbed in a fall

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[Norseman]

What's the advantage of >55 cm axes for skiing? I own a 70 cm raven that's basically sat on the shelf since I bought the Petzl Gully and Sum'Tec. I use my ski poles for balance on mellow slopes and a Sum'Tec for plunging on steeper slopes. Petzl Ride/Gully works fine too, minus the plunging issues goldenboy mentioned.

But I know norseman and steve get out a lot so I'm curious what their argument is.

I guess my perspective on the longer axe comes from the case of the (imperfect) 2-man roped team on crevassed, not-too-steep glaciers, where the tool in your hand is the only hope of arresting as your buddy drags you towards the crack after falling in... and also is a fair bit more comfortable if it can just reach the snow, for rest and balance.

Of course this situation is a can of worms to start and I don't think this is the appropriate venue for debating glacier travel theory (and I'm a jong ass novice).

With less concern on cracks... ski poles all the way.

Steep... whippet and short axe.

I hate fucking around with ropes and shit, and prefer spring tours where alu cramps, ski cramps and whippets are the only special tools required.

So for the OP's case in the Tetons, yeah, ignore my earlier notes and just go short/light. Sorry... in a brain fog this week from tired single-parenting as wifey travels.